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 Engine Maintenance

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ChainDrive

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PostSubject: Engine Maintenance   Sun Aug 30, 2015 7:34 am

I have done some research but I still have not found a good answer why scheduled maintenance is so much less for Yamaha when compared to the KTM/Husqvarna. Looking through the manual WR250R has a valve clearance check at 26,600 and doesn't even mention a piston change but for example on a 2014 350 Husky, Valve check at 1 hour, and 30 hours and piston, con rod and bearings at 135 hours. At an average of 20 to 25 MPH that is from 2700 to 3500 miles.
Has Yamaha gotten some secret for making pistons and valves. I have read the forums that say KTM's are made for racing but the figures for the Husky are for when you are not racing, reduce the hours lower if raced. Take a WR250 load it with a 250 pound rider and gear and travel through the Rockies for a week and do that year after year, that certainly would seem to be as hard as any enduro.
So does anyone know the technical reason why a WR250R requires so much less maintenance than Orange?
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speersie

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PostSubject: Re: Engine Maintenance   Sun Aug 30, 2015 7:47 am

ChainDrive wrote:
I have done some research but I still have not found a good answer why scheduled maintenance is so much less for Yamaha when compared to the KTM/Husqvarna. Looking through the manual WR250R has a valve clearance check at 26,600 and doesn't even mention a piston change but for example on a 2014 350 Husky, Valve check at 1 hour, and 30 hours and piston, con rod and bearings at 135 hours. At an average of 20 to 25 MPH that is from 2700 to 3500 miles.
Has Yamaha gotten some secret for making pistons and valves. I have read the forums that say KTM's are made for racing but the figures for the Husky are for when you are not racing, reduce the hours lower if raced. Take a WR250 load it with a 250 pound rider and gear and travel through the Rockies for a week and do that year after year, that certainly would seem to be as hard as any enduro.
So does anyone know the technical reason why a WR250R requires so much less maintenance than Orange?

You are comparing blueberries with oranges.
For a true comparison you need to compare the WRF's not the WRR or WRX.
The WRR and WRX have road maintenance intervals and are not high horsepower bikes. The bikes are made for completely differnet purposes. The WRR and WRX are definitely not race or enduro bikes unlike the WRF's or the YZF's.
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ChainDrive

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PostSubject: Dual sport to Dual Sport   Sun Aug 30, 2015 9:54 am

I compared the Husqvarna FE350S for a reason. It is a street legal dual sport model like the Yamaha. It cost about twice the amount of a WR250R but it serves the same purpose. You get on it in your garage, ride on the road to your favorite trail and you ride it back home. The Yamaha you run for years with a very low cost of ownership. If comparing the dual sport Husky to do the exact same thing as the WRR the cost of ownership is much higher. So it goes back the original question what it is about the engine that requires more maintenance?
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Evol

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PostSubject: Re: Engine Maintenance   Sun Aug 30, 2015 10:17 am

The KTM is a high strung / high performance engine, the WRR/X is NOT !!!
It's like comparing a Ferrari to a Toyota minivan....
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Jens Eskildsen




PostSubject: Re: Engine Maintenance   Sun Aug 30, 2015 10:28 am

For starters:

Fe350: 12.000rpm limit, and 46hp vs 10.800rpm(??) limit and 30hp for the yammie...

So, more power per cylinder volume, and more rpms even with the larger motor.
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DPete

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PostSubject: Re: Engine Maintenance   Sun Aug 30, 2015 11:52 am

It's a good question, I can only guess that the KTM valve train is weight saving softer materials wearing faster than the wrr. For the valves to need constant adjustment something is wearing. Typically high performance engines have always required more maintaince. Yamaha must know that a high maintaince engine on a dual sport would hurt sales
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ChainDrive

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PostSubject: If I were a betting man   Sun Aug 30, 2015 6:19 pm

"It's a good question, I can only guess that the KTM valve train is weight saving softer materials wearing faster than the wrr. For the valves to need constant adjustment something is wearing. Typically high performance engines have always required more maintaince. Yamaha must know that a high maintaince engine on a dual sport would hurt sales"

You have the same conclusion that I have but am not quite sure, that is the reason for the question. The compression on a new WRR is 11.8 to 1. The FE350S is 12.3 to 1 and the FE501S is 11.8 to 1 so cylinder pressures are close the same. My guess is the durability is sacrificed for horsepower and weight savings. The valves are probably oversized but made of a very light weight material and the cam shafts provide a higher duration and lift, all putting a strain on the top end. Likewise the piston is probably made very light and the crankshaft is balanced to that weight so a more durable piston that weights more cannot be used. All bearings are made as light as possible to save weight
I also come the same conclusion about hurting dual sport sales. I can buy a WRR and ride for 3 years and expect to change oil, air filter, change tires and chain and sprockets, etc., but I can buy a FE350S have all the same expenses as the WRR plus several valve adjustments, a piston, camshaft drive chain and maybe split the case and go with a new crankshaft. And oh yes pay about twice for the bike as the WRR.
I have about 200 miles of street legal dual sport trails in a state forest about 11 mile from my house, thus the need for a dual sport. The bike needs to fill that requirement. A lot of comparisons have already been used in comparing cost from a WRR to Husky. I have another one. It is like buying a Mack truck to haul away leaves from your yard when a pickup will do. So a WRR or DRZ400S or KLR650 or CRF250L is the dual sport competition to the FE350S so I only think it is right to compare the Husky. KTM/Husky want to play on the same field then they need to explain or justify why their cost is so much more than the competition. I understand and expect the extra costs for enduro models when used for competition.
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Biglake




PostSubject: Re: Engine Maintenance   Sun Aug 30, 2015 6:56 pm

Ktm and now husky because its a ktm have figured out that a lot of people want a road legal no compromise race bike so they build one and sell a lot of them.
Its not built to last forever and to be used like a street bike like dualsports like the WRR so even tho you can buy it and use it for the same things you use the WRR for its not even close to the same type of bike. Like someone else posted the husky is a lot like the WRF but the husky is road legal.

For where I ride bikes like the WRR are great, the lighter and faster bikes are over kill which is fun for a lot of guys tho so theres a bunch of em around.
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Evol

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PostSubject: Re: Engine Maintenance   Sun Aug 30, 2015 8:00 pm

FYI : Valve adjustments are a 15 min job on the 350/500 EXC's. The really difference is the oil changes, which adds up cost.

It depends on what you want from a bike....Do you want a minivan or a Ferrari ?

High performance = high maintenance vs. low performance = low maintenance.

WRR/X = ~300 lbs.
500 EXC = ~250 lbs. with almost double the HP.

The EXC is a street legal dirtbike.
The WRR/X is 1 cylinder from an R1 in a dirtbike frame.


Last edited by Evol on Mon Aug 31, 2015 7:43 am; edited 2 times in total
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speersie

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PostSubject: Re: Engine Maintenance   Mon Aug 31, 2015 6:17 am

They are all street legal in Australia. But they are made for different purposes. The fact Yamaha don't make the WRF street legal in the U.S. vs the husky has nothing to do with what the bike was designed for. The WRR is not a race bike and designed with that in mind. Built low power and low maintenance .
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ChainDrive

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PostSubject: Form and Function   Mon Aug 31, 2015 4:38 pm

I guess my expectations for a dual sport is different. A bike that is light enough to handle tight single track in Pennsylvania. Have the fuel range to travel all day. Be able to carry tire repair, tools, first aid and sundries so it will needs some sort of rack and bags. And have sufficient power to get me from place to place. Also be comfortable to ride. So to fit that function the bike needs to take that form.

The WRR has been described a low performance and low power but it has power enough to meet it's function as a fun dual sport . There is a large premium paid for the KTM/Husky for 50 pounds in weight but after a rack and bags are added plus extra fuel since it only has a 2 gallon tank and an estimated fuel range of 50 to 60 miles, you now have a 300 pound bike. A new seat needs install too because every review stated 20 to 30 miles is all your butt can stand.

But the Husky can do something the WRR cannot. Our local Honda dealership just added Husky and outside was a FE501S. The first words out of the salesman's mouth is that "you can pull a wheelie at 80 mph". The next was $10,600.00. Two things I didn't need to hear.
Also on the state forest trail I referred to earlier I came across a rider happy to show off his brand new Husky 300 2 stoke. He was a former motocross rider but his first comment was that "the bike was more than he needed". Power is not the whole function of a dual sport.

I will be happy to pull over and let the Ferrari pass by but I will catch up when it stops for service.
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Evol

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PostSubject: Re: Engine Maintenance   Mon Aug 31, 2015 5:04 pm

You say that when you add all the stuff you want to carry with you, the KTM/Husky will be 300 lbs. Don't forget that if you're adding 50 lbs of crap to your bike, then the WRR will end up weighing 350 lbs. with the same crap.

The extra cash for having 50 lbs less also gives you an extra 20 hp !!!

FYI: With my WRX, I only get 90 km (56 mi) per tank before the light comes on.
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ChainDrive

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PostSubject: Conclusion   Mon Aug 31, 2015 7:10 pm

I guess it all comes down to personal questions about a dual sport
Do I need 20 more horsepower?
Or is it just that I want 20 more horsepower?
Could I utilize 20 more horsepower efficiently?
Is 50 pounds and more horsepower worth at least 2 times and maybe up to three times more money than a standard dual sport.

That is the reason for the first question about maintenance, I was trying to see if there was any rational reason to justify the extra expense and was I going to get value for my money.
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Evol

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PostSubject: Re: Engine Maintenance   Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:14 pm

It's like buying a Ferrari...It's expensive and you might not need it, but you'll probably still enjoy using it.

I'm looking to switch to either a 701 Supermoto (690 SMC-R) or something else (not sure yet) because the WRX just doesn't have enough power for my needs.
Yeah, I want to wheelie at 80, but mainly I want more power for top speed (I commute on the highway and cars drive fast here).

If you're looking for an offroad bike, the 50 less pounds will be noticeable, as will the extra ponies. You don't have to use the extra power, but it'll be there when you need it. With the WRR/X's, it's not there.


BTW, If you're ok with spending the money, the 690 Enduro R (701 Enduro) also has low maintenance and even more power (67 hp) but it weighs ~330 Lbs. with a full tank.
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Jens Eskildsen




PostSubject: Re: Engine Maintenance   Tue Sep 01, 2015 2:25 am

The Wr can go on a diet and loose some weight if needed, theres not much to gain on something like the husky.

I've taken daytrips in excess of 700km, the wr is just about the perfect combination for me. And I'll just have to settle with 3rd gear wheelies then Shog
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ChainDrive

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PostSubject: 690   Tue Sep 01, 2015 3:13 pm

Evol 690 Enduro R
If it is your intention to commit suicide by throttle you might as well go all in, Ducati Hypermotard SP 110 HP 376 pounds. Plus there is an upside to the Ducati it cost less than the KTM so there will be more money for flowers at the funeral.
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Evol

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PostSubject: Re: Engine Maintenance   Tue Sep 01, 2015 8:14 pm

ChainDrive wrote:
Evol 690 Enduro R
If it is your intention to commit suicide by throttle you might as well go all in, Ducati Hypermotard SP 110 HP 376 pounds. Plus there is an upside to the Ducati it cost less than the KTM so there will be more money for flowers at the funeral.

Naaa....  thumb

Actually, I'm kinda leaning towards the FZ-09 because of the price, although I would much rather stick to a supermoto instead of a naked street bike. Did I mention it is half the price of the 701 and has more power!

I sat on the Hyper SP at the moto show last winter and it's just too big. Too wide, too tall, too top heavy. No likey...

P.S. My last motorcycle was a CR250R motocross. This WR250X is a huge step down in power / power delivery.
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Jäger
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PostSubject: Re: Engine Maintenance   Thu Sep 10, 2015 1:03 pm

Evol wrote:
You say that when you add all the stuff you want to carry with you, the KTM/Husky will be 300 lbs. Don't forget that if you're adding 50 lbs of crap to your bike, then the WRR will end up weighing 350 lbs. with the same crap.

Yeah, but the percentage you have increased the maximum weight on the WRR is a lot less than the percentage you increased the weight of the KTM/Husky.  I'm also pretty sure expectations of that kind of load bearing was included in the design of the WRR (such as how it would handle loaded like that), just as I'm pretty sure the KTM/Husky designers designed while thinking few of the buyers of their bikes would be strapping 50 lbs of crap on their bikes.  Which may be why Carl's 530 loaded down KTM feels like crap to ride in some circumstances when compared to how my WRR similar loaded feels in the same places.

You can strap that 50 lbs of crap (or whatever) straight on a WRR without doing anything other than strap it down.  You're going to have to add some additional bits and pieces to the others unless you get really inventive in how you add it on.  Probably part of the reason that the KTM/Husky's mentioned here are not seen as often as daily rides doing everything from commuting to work to doing a grocery run.  

Meanwhile, for the weight obsessed, you can trim about 20 lbs off a WRR if the weight really bothers you.  You aren't going to trim the same weight off the others.

It won't make a WRR something it's not and wasn't intended to be, but it's not quite a one sided equation either.

Quote :
The extra cash for having 50 lbs less also gives you an extra 20 hp !!!

Which would be really, really important to those who want or need it.

On the other side of the coin, we have people like Big Dog who has pretty much covered the continent on a WRR and who frequently commented that everything over 26 hp is wheelspin.  Dual sport touring is not enduro riding or aggressive singletracking.

The Bitterroot commute usually gets done at around 82/84 mph.  That's pretty close to maxed out for the WRR, but it happily does that speed for the two hours that ride takes on the slab.  So I'm not coming up short 20 hp or too heavy for that commute.  Good enough for me.  All the more so when I have done it once or twice on my riding partner's KTM 530.  HP to spare and much lighter - and for the Bitterroot commute, I'll take my WRR for the ride every single day, every single time.  Any light naked bike is annoying to me once you get in the 80 mph region for any amount of time.  Add to that the ride of the KTM on the slab and it has moved into noticeably unpleasant.  It's Carl that's always asking me if I want to switch bikes for the ride back home - not me asking him.

You can look at it as "Wouldn't you really rather drive a Ferrari than a Toyota 4Runner".  For other people it becomes "Would a Toyota 4Runner be better for your uses and needs than a Ferrari".  I raced motocross for a lot of years, but I DON'T want my dual sport bike to do the best job possible of imitating a motocrosser.

Quote :
FYI: With my WRX, I only get 90 km (56 mi) per tank before the light comes on.

I get something in the mid 40/mpg range doing the high speed commutes.  I don't know what I could do to knock it down to anything approaching 30/mpg.

I do know that whatever kind of riding you are doing to end up getting that kind of mileage, it's not dual sport. But the R and W are very different as far as intent goes anyways.

I have gotten as high as just over 80/mpg dual sporting, although very infrequently and it obviously didn't involve a lot of changes in elevation.  Pretty much ambling down flat gravel FSRs.  Most riding, my GPS tells me my average traveling speed is just over 30 mph for the two or three days I was out on the ride.  I couldn't even make those rides if my riding had the low fuel light coming on at 56 kms - no gas stations out here in the middle of the mountains.
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ChainDrive

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PostSubject: Wheel Spin   Thu Sep 10, 2015 6:15 pm

"everything over 26 hp is wheelspin." GOOD QUOTE
I need to get a t-shirt with that on it.
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66T

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PostSubject: Re: Engine Maintenance   Thu Sep 10, 2015 10:51 pm

Hmm. I've asked the question before and I'll ask it again: why try to compare are a humble 250 traillie to a 500 or greater? Expecting a long-lasting 250 to compete with bikes more than twice its size is not only pointless imo, but unreasonable.

Want a big bore? Get one. Hoping a 250 will do won't work.
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DWK




PostSubject: Re: Engine Maintenance   Sun Sep 13, 2015 11:24 am

66T wrote:
Hmm. I've asked the question before and I'll ask it again: why try to compare are a humble 250 traillie to a 500 or greater? Expecting a long-lasting 250 to compete with bikes more than twice its size is not only pointless imo, but unreasonable.

Want a big bore? Get one. Hoping a 250 will do won't work.


That's exactly what I did. ;) I have a WR250R and a Husky FE501s. The Yamaha is very comfortable and easy/pleasant to ride. The Husky has dramatically more power, lower overall weight, a lower center of gravity, and faster handling. Great for big hill climbs and really nasty terrain. However, when I'm running on fire roads and average trails, I still sometimes take the Yamaha. And if the Husky needs to be off-line for maintenance, I'll still have a good bike to ride.

Dave
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GusinCA

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PostSubject: Re: Engine Maintenance   Mon Sep 14, 2015 12:30 am

I've ridden for 35 years. Had almost every kind of bike you can name.
I've seen at least 10 KTM's with day ending, trail stranding failures. Blown engines, failed water pumps, clutches, lots of clutches.
I've never seen 1 Yamaha with a failure that strands the bike. Not 1.
I own a Yamaha WR250R, a Yamaha Rhino, a Yamaha TTR-90E, and a Yamaha 242 Limited S. I can afford a KTM, trust me.
I'm just not that stupid.
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Fiftygrit

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PostSubject: Re: Engine Maintenance   Mon Sep 14, 2015 1:15 am

KTM and Yamaha and all the other brands have there place, my son has a Husky TE310 and it is a great bike for the bush, not so good road, he has to do way more service than I have to on the WRR, going to our off road spots he wishes he had mine and when we get in tight stuff I wish I had his, will mine last longer oh hell ya, he is 31 years younger and rides harder in the bush, but will mine do logging roads and get me to the liquor store and golf course and all I want, yes, bottom line, we all need about 5 machines to cover all our needs hahaha just my .2c worth.
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66T

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PostSubject: Re: Engine Maintenance   Tue Sep 15, 2015 4:53 am

Yeah, I agree fiftygrit. I want a fuge aircontioned shed filled with bikes old and new, including an R90S, G12 Matchless and yes, a new WR250R.

I'd suggest that the WR-R needs less servicing is that it is designed to that end. Relatively heavy, robust components with adequate oil supply, maybe better materials designed to last, and so-on.

Full-on enduro bikes are loaded with relatively light-weight components with designed for a shorter service life. Those parts are subject to high thermal loads as well as mechanical loads, thus need replacing (in theory) much more often than those from a humble, lower-stressed trallie. I suppose that most enduro bikes ridden kindly, and serviced often with correct fluids, will last pretty well too.

Anyone can ruin anything if they try hard enough.
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Evol

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PostSubject: Re: Engine Maintenance   Tue Sep 15, 2015 8:03 pm

GusinCA wrote:
I've ridden for 35 years. Had almost every kind of bike you can name.
I've seen at least 10 KTM's with day ending, trail stranding failures. Blown engines, failed water pumps, clutches, lots of clutches.
I've never seen 1 Yamaha with a failure that strands the bike. Not 1.
I own a Yamaha WR250R, a Yamaha Rhino, a Yamaha TTR-90E, and a Yamaha 242 Limited S. I can afford a KTM, trust me.
I'm just not that stupid.

My WRX left me almost stranded. Engine would not start on 3 separate locations on the same day. Luckily I had enough of a hill each time to run with the bike and bump start it !!!
Other bikes that day were a 690 Enduro, FS650e and DRZ. None of them had problems and they were laughing at my "unreliable Yamaha"....
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