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 Getting Stuck in Neutral shifting from 2nd to 1st

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Cal44




PostSubject: Getting Stuck in Neutral shifting from 2nd to 1st   Fri Jun 09, 2017 12:07 pm

I'm on my 2nd WRR. I love the WRR. Both were 2008. 1st one was great even at 22,000miles. Should have kept it.

Bought a 2nd one with 700 miles on it. It has 1500 miles now. When it gets hot, it gets stuck in neutral for a few seconds or more. Sometimes it will go in after 3-6 attempts of downshifting and slipping a little clutch. Clutch is adjusted correctly. Sometime it's so bad, I have to go up to 2nd to get going.

It has fresh oil and filter.

I'm an A level woods rider and decent wrench. This isn't just your typical momentary mis-shift. It mostly happens when going slow and coming to a stop, especially if you stop or go very slow in 2nd at low RPM's(not that I make a habit of doing that but sometimes it happens). This is a big problem at slow speeds in the woods when approaching a big log and going slow and need 1st or sometimes at a traffic light.

I called Yamaha and they were pleasant but no advice. Called the top Yamaha dealer in Denver and said 4.5 hours to split the cases.

Here are some other posts with WRR riders with similar issues:

http://wr250rforum.forumotion.com/t10578-stuck-in-neutral-occasionally?highlight=neutral

https://www.thumpertalk.com/forums/topic/599387-hard-shifting-into-1st-gear/#comment-5792744

Just looking for any feedback or advice on what it could be. And yes, sometimes bikes can do something like this but please don't suggest changing my riding style or adjust the clutch cable. Something is just funky here. My other WRR never did this. My vin# is in the 300's so this was one of the first ones. The only good news is I bought the bike very cheap considering the low miles. Called the previous owner up on it. He said it was noticeable from day one but not a major issue for him. He got a little defensive.

Also wondering if anyone else has a similar issue. It's not super noticeable unless going slow and stopping a lot and in tight woods going from 2nd to 1st a lot.

Thanks in advance!!
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JusTheUsual




PostSubject: Re: Getting Stuck in Neutral shifting from 2nd to 1st   Sat Jun 10, 2017 12:55 pm

I have a new one and mine was doing the same. At the 500mile break in the oil was changed to 15-50 yama full synthetic. Problem solved.
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Cal44




PostSubject: Re: Getting Stuck in Neutral shifting from 2nd to 1st   Sun Jun 11, 2017 10:15 am

JusTheUsual wrote:
I have a new one and mine was doing the same. At the 500mile break in the oil was changed to 15-50 yama full synthetic. Problem solved.

Thanks. I'll give it a try for sure. I put in 10W-50(Correction edit) semi synthetic Yamaha oil. How many miles on your bike now?


Last edited by Cal44 on Sun Jun 11, 2017 12:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
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dicklane625

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PostSubject: Re: Getting Stuck in Neutral shifting from 2nd to 1st   Sun Jun 11, 2017 11:38 am

I bought mine new in 2015. I ran yamalube 10-40 for a while, but would notice the shifter get clunky goin past n into neutral. This was worse the older the oil got, n the hotter it was. I blamed it on oil breakdown, but it did feel better on a fresh oil change with the yamalube. So it sounds like it's a lil different than your issue but similar. I changed to a full synthetic 10-40 n haven't noticed it getting clunky again yet. Still haven't put that many miles on her to say it defiantly fixed my issue...

A word of warning on synthetics. The general consensus is not to change to it with less than 1500 miles on the motor. It can lube too good and prevent the rings from seating properly. Causing blow by, loss of power, carbon in the oil, and some oil burnage. If that happens it can't be undone, and this info is backed by reputable engine builders that break a motor in the right way... I've also found some info on keeping the range the oil covers to a minimum. 10w-40 acts like 10w cold but 40w hot so a range of 30. To get a bigger a range they add more crap that is said to have a tendency to burn off.

It might also be possible that the p/o, instead of being easy on it when it'd get clunky, ram jammed it, n messed up some synchros permanently.
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dicklane625

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PostSubject: Re: Getting Stuck in Neutral shifting from 2nd to 1st   Sun Jun 11, 2017 12:13 pm

After posting that I saw your running 5-30. 30w only covers ambient temps up to 70F. That oil isn't even listed in the owners manual... 10w will let you run down to 10F. Could be part of your problem, n would most likely be breaking down at ambient temps over 70F. I'd suggest something that goes up to 40w unless ur ambient temp is less than 70F. A 40w will cover up to 110F ambient air temps. I don't know if I can post the graph that's in my owners manual... But those are the temps it lists for different weights....

For me a 50w should be unnecessary cause 96 was my hottest temp last year. It can actually rob power since it's thicker... But if I think my oils breaking down I might try it...

Oh n the rings not seating properly... I meant it can't be undone easily. Re-ring n hone the cylinder start the break in process again....
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Cal44




PostSubject: Re: Getting Stuck in Neutral shifting from 2nd to 1st   Sun Jun 11, 2017 12:31 pm

dicklane625 wrote:
After posting that I saw your running 5-30. 30w only covers ambient temps up to 70F. That oil isn't even listed in the owners manual... 10w will let you run down to 10F. Could be part of your problem, n would most likely be breaking down at ambient temps over 70F. I'd suggest something that goes up to 40w unless ur ambient temp is less than 70F. A 40w will cover up to 110F ambient air temps. I don't know if I can post the graph that's in my owners manual... But those are the temps it lists for different weights....

For me a 50w should be unnecessary cause 96 was my hottest temp last year. It can actually rob power since it's thicker... But if I think my oils breaking down I might try it...

Oh n the rings not seating properly... I meant it can't be undone easily. Re-ring n hone the cylinder start the break in process again....

Just double checked and I'm actually running Yamalube 10W- 50. Semi Synthetic. Sorry about that.

Thanks for the info.!!

Went on a long DS ride yesterday. About 300 miles. We were on smooth gravel roads and pavement and the neutral issue wasn't that noticeable. Unlike last week in the tight woods where it was a big problem due to the low speeds and using 1st and 2nd a lot.

If I do have to split the cases, I may go big bore and long rod while i'm in there.
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dicklane625

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PostSubject: Re: Getting Stuck in Neutral shifting from 2nd to 1st   Sun Jun 11, 2017 2:26 pm

I noticed that with mine too... If it wasn't getting the cooling from higher speeds it seemed to get a lil more clunky.

I'm not knocking yamalube, but Yamaha doesn't make this oil. It gets sub'd out to the cheapest bidder... My problem with it is you cant find out who makes it for them. My thinking is, if it was a top notch brand they would specify it themselves n not leave it open to questioning, take ktm/motorex for example there, its right on the bottle... I tried and found a couple different ppl saying who makes it, that being citgo or spectro, with no way to confirm the supplier. I even looked for a number to call or an email to ask Yamaha themselves, n didn't find one that I'd say that's the one, so I just switched for a brand I could find info on... Not all oils are the same.. Supposedly Mobile beat a law suit, they were labeling a highly refined dino as synthetic, won, and its kinda been open market from there on out... So even tho it's labeled synthetic it might just be highly refined dino oil n they don't have the break down characteristics of a true synthetic, there's heat breakdown, n shearing or something like that, I think lesser oils are more prone to the shearing breakdown. So your base starts out all the same but the molecules get busted up n it goes to shit.. It's a pain in the ass but with most oils you can find out what they are using as base oil, with yamalube you can't find out who manufactures it for them so no way of finding out what is in it...

I forgot half of what I read about it, but I think I started this quest in the oil n filters section of this forum. I think the sticked thread oil oil and oil has a ton of info about it. I think I found other sources too, but it's a good starting point if your interested...

With a big bore/stroker combo, you probably would want to do some machining to the piston or head. I forget what it raises the comp ratio to but its ridiculous. No pump gas ridiculous...
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Cal44




PostSubject: Re: Getting Stuck in Neutral shifting from 2nd to 1st   Sun Jun 11, 2017 10:05 pm

dicklane625 wrote:
I noticed that with mine too... If it wasn't getting the cooling from higher speeds it seemed to get a lil more clunky.

I'm not knocking yamalube, but Yamaha doesn't make this oil. It gets sub'd out to the cheapest bidder...  My problem with it is you cant find out who makes it for them. My thinking is, if it was a top notch brand they would specify it themselves n not leave it open to questioning, take ktm/motorex for example there, its right on the bottle... I tried and found a couple different ppl saying who makes it, that being citgo or spectro, with no way to confirm the supplier. I even looked for a number to call or an email to ask Yamaha themselves, n didn't find one that I'd say that's the one, so I just switched for a brand I could find info on... Not all oils are the same.. Supposedly Mobile beat a law suit, they were labeling a highly refined dino as synthetic, won, and its kinda been open market from there on out... So even tho it's labeled synthetic it might just be highly refined dino oil n they don't have the break down characteristics of a true synthetic, there's heat breakdown, n shearing or something like that, I think lesser oils are more prone to the shearing breakdown. So your base starts out all the same but the molecules get busted up n it goes to shit.. It's a pain in the ass but with most oils you can find out what they are using as base oil, with yamalube you can't find out who manufactures it for them so no way of finding out what is in it...

I forgot half of what I read about it, but I think I started this quest in the oil n filters section of this forum. I think the sticked thread oil oil and oil has a ton of info about it. I think I found other sources too, but it's a good starting point if your interested...

With a big bore/stroker combo, you probably would want to do some machining to the piston or head. I forget what it raises the comp ratio to but its ridiculous. No pump gas ridiculous...

Not to turn this into an oil thread, but which synthetic would be a good choice for this issue?
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rsteiger

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PostSubject: Re: Getting Stuck in Neutral shifting from 2nd to 1st   Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:59 am

Cal44 wrote:
Not to turn this into an oil thread, but which synthetic would be a good choice for this issue?

BWAHAHAHAHA!

Ok I will start since I probably will like the the carnage that follows with all the responses.

My friend and I both ride WRR's.

I pretty much would put whatever oil I had available in mine which usually was either Rotella 5W-40 or 15W-40. Most of the time it was the 15W-40 since that was typically cheaper. I have about 16,000 miles on my WRR and use it mainly for DS rides and exploring FS roads along with the occasional single track. It has been underwater once about 12,000 miles ago but appears to not suffer any long term damage from it.

My friend has about 6,000 miles on his and is meticulous with the maintenance on his WRR he is also one big goof ball of a rider and will take the WRR just about any where and he rides it hard. He swears by Rotella 5W-40and won't touch the 15W-40 stuff because of the impact on the shift quality of the bike.

He has told me this many times and each time I tell him he is full of shit - hey what are friends for, right?

So on my last oil change I had a couple of quarts of Amsoil full synthetic 10W-40 laying around and only a little bit of my Rotella 15W-40 - so I went with the Amsoil. Next day I rode up to meeting him In Tellico Plains, TN from south of ATL. I have a couple of nice routes that bypass most of the express ways and take you down some nice back roads and even some dirt.

Well horrors of horrors, on the trip up I noticed how much smoother the WRR was shifting - buttery smooth. All that weekend it shifted like a dream and it still shifts that way about 2000 miles later. It convinced me enough to buy some more of the Amsoil 10W-40 for the next oil change and buy my buddy a beer to let him know that he was right and I was wrong.
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dicklane625

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PostSubject: Re: Getting Stuck in Neutral shifting from 2nd to 1st   Mon Jun 12, 2017 11:32 am

I'm running amsoil too, 10-40 metric synthetic, at the moment. I like it so far. Don't know if the dirt bike oil they make would be better, n I actually didn't confirm what base oil they are using, it's just what I found locally. I had the bike out for a couple hours yesterday in peak heat, she shifted smooth the whole time. I had it on some slow goin gnarly washed out seasonal roads that don't even show up on most maps, fan runnin most the time, still shifted nice. So far it's pretty close to the same color it went in too...

If I start ordering it I might try the klotz, just cause I like their smoker oil, n its red. Yep sounds like a great reason to try an oil right? It's red lmao.

Maximuma pro plus comes up on top for highest rated on rmatv, n a lil cheaper than I got the amsoil for. I looked locally but couldn't find any one that stocks it... Probably a better choice, compared to the red one, if I want to order something besides asmoil... Rmavt doesn't sell amsoil so I don't know which would win in that battle, but they are the easiest to see what base they are using as a base. Its right in the first line on their product listing, Maxima Pro Plus is an ester fortified full synthetic 4T engine oil. This might not actually mean ester based, maybe they add it idk.

I was looking into this brand I saw on amazon too. Ravenol. They make some vdub, bmw, n diesel oils. Their synthetic is ester based, but 10-50 so a little wider range on the viscosity. Comes in around the same price as the maxima.

There are too many oils... I want the shifter to feel nice n the oil to stay the same color. I've been told getting darker means it's the wrong oil or the engine has a good bit of blow by, depositing combustion crap in the oil. At the most I ran the yamalube 1200 miles, most of that being commuting with maybe 20 miles of trails, less than that the more trails I hit. It'd start shifty crappy n be pretty dark, so I'd change it. Normally 500-700 miles, that's it... If I find one that goes 3000 on mostly roads, less depending on environment, n stays the same color n keeps it shifting smooth, I'll probably only run that one...
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GerGa




PostSubject: Re: Getting Stuck in Neutral shifting from 2nd to 1st   Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:23 pm

rsteiger wrote:
Cal44 wrote:
Not to turn this into an oil thread, but which synthetic would be a good choice for this issue?

BWAHAHAHAHA!

Ok I will start since I probably will like the the carnage that follows with all the responses.

My friend and I both ride WRR's.

I pretty much would put whatever oil I had available in mine which usually was either Rotella 5W-40 or 15W-40.   Most of the time it was the 15W-40 since that was typically cheaper.  I have about 16,000 miles on my WRR and use it mainly for DS rides and exploring FS roads along with the occasional single track.  It has been underwater once about 12,000 miles ago but appears to not suffer any long term damage from it.

My friend has about 6,000 miles on his and is meticulous with the maintenance on his WRR he is also one big goof ball of a rider and will take the WRR just about any where and he rides it hard.  He swears by Rotella 5W-40and won't touch the 15W-40 stuff because of the impact on the shift quality of the bike.

He has told me this many times and each time I tell him he is full of shit - hey what are friends for, right?

So on my last oil change I had a couple of quarts of Amsoil full synthetic 10W-40 laying around and only a little bit of my Rotella 15W-40 - so I went with the Amsoil.   Next day I rode up to meeting him In Tellico Plains, TN from south of ATL.  I have a couple of nice routes that bypass most of the express ways and take you down some nice back roads and even some dirt.

Well horrors of horrors, on the trip up I noticed how much smoother the WRR was shifting - buttery smooth.  All that weekend it shifted like a dream and it still shifts that way about 2000 miles later.  It convinced me enough to buy some more of the Amsoil 10W-40 for the next oil change and buy my buddy a beer to let him know that he was right and I was wrong.
Which Rotella were you running, the mineral oil, semi synthetic, full synthetic?  It's actually been known on the bobistheoilguy forum that Rotella full synthetic wears out quickly in a shared sump bike(shared motor and transmission oil).  There was also a guy with a wr that had various oils tested and found the same to be true, the full synthetic Rotella sheared down way too quickly, while Rotella mineral oil, Yamalube mineral oil both kept their viscosity much better, and Redline oil(which is synthetic) seemed to keep the most viscosity.  This was a bit of a revelation to me as it broke my assumption that synthetic oils would always perform better.


Last edited by GerGa on Tue Jun 13, 2017 4:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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rsteiger

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PostSubject: Re: Getting Stuck in Neutral shifting from 2nd to 1st   Tue Jun 13, 2017 3:02 pm

GerGa wrote:

Which Rotella were you running, the mineral oil, semi synthetic, full synthetic?  It's actually been known on the bobistheoilguy forum that Rotella full synthetic wears out quickly in a shared sump bike(shared motor and transmission oil).  There was also a guy with a wr that had various oils tested and found the same to be true, the full synthetic Rotella sheared down way too quickly, while Rotella mineral oil, Yamalube mineral oil both kept their viscosity much better, and Redline oil(which is synthetic).  Seemed to keep the most viscosity.  This was a bit of a revelation to me as it broke my assumption that synthetic oils would always perform better.

Well I will leave that up to you to determine.

The 15W-40 came in a big white jug and was cheap.

The 5W-40 came in a big blue jug and was not as cheap as the 15W-40. I do believe it mentioned synthetic on it some where but I am not sure if it was full or semi.

Typically I mostly ran the 15W-40 stuff before while my friend ran the 5W-40 stuff.

Both of us typically change oil in the 2000 to 3000 mile range. For him he would change it when the shifting became a bit rough.
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GerGa




PostSubject: Re: Getting Stuck in Neutral shifting from 2nd to 1st   Tue Jun 13, 2017 4:27 pm

rsteiger wrote:
GerGa wrote:

Which Rotella were you running, the mineral oil, semi synthetic, full synthetic?  It's actually been known on the bobistheoilguy forum that Rotella full synthetic wears out quickly in a shared sump bike(shared motor and transmission oil).  There was also a guy with a wr that had various oils tested and found the same to be true, the full synthetic Rotella sheared down way too quickly, while Rotella mineral oil, Yamalube mineral oil both kept their viscosity much better, and Redline oil(which is synthetic) seemed to keep the most viscosity.  This was a bit of a revelation to me as it broke my assumption that synthetic oils would always perform better.

Well I will leave that up to you to determine.

The 15W-40 came in a big white jug and was cheap.

The 5W-40 came in a big blue jug and was not as cheap as the 15W-40.  I do believe it mentioned synthetic on it some where but I am not sure if it was full or semi.

Typically I mostly ran the 15W-40 stuff before while my friend ran the 5W-40 stuff.

Both of us typically change oil in the 2000 to 3000 mile range.  For him he would change it when the shifting became a bit rough.

Ok so the Rotella in the white jug 15W-40 would be T or the newly branded T4 which is standard mineral oil, the 5W-40 blue jug would be T6 full synthetic.
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Biglake




PostSubject: Re: Getting Stuck in Neutral shifting from 2nd to 1st   Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:15 am

I run rotella oil too.
I use 15-40 most of the time but run the 5 or 0-40 in the winter, the bike cranks over faster on cold starts with it when its below freezing. The 15-40 is the dino oil, the 5 and 0-40's are synthetic.

The bike doesn't like to go from neutral to first when I'm due for a oil change but it shifts fine with fresh oil. If it doesn't want to go into first letting the clutch out 1/2 way while shifting gets it in gear btw.
Since most of my miles are offroad, I use this as a indicator of when I need to change the oil not miles as some rides are way harder on the bike than others.
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