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 to torque or not to torque

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cryptomundo




PostSubject: to torque or not to torque   Sat Jul 31, 2010 10:03 pm


who uses a torque wrench and when? im just curious when snug is good or torque is better.
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SheWolf
Alpha Rider
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PostSubject: Re: to torque or not to torque   Sat Jul 31, 2010 10:05 pm

Nope, never bothered.

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A wolf's voice echoed down the mountain 'Share the bounty of the hunt with your brothers and sisters, and forever be strong and free.'
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thumpjump




PostSubject: Re: to torque or not to torque   Sun Aug 01, 2010 1:32 am

I use a torque wrench almost all the time. If it's under 20 lbs I usually just snug it up, and might use blue lock tight. I've had too many snapped bolt heads and stripped threads in the past and decided it's easier, safer, and gives you some piece of mind to torque it down.

It's especially important around bearings. Too much torque and you can damage things pretty bad, too little and you may not have enough preload on them and cause things to be loose. I'm also anal about triple clamps. Your whole front suspension is supported by the clamps and with the abuse they take, I want to make sure they're torqued right.

As a rule of thumb, if my life really depends on the part staying where it's supposed to (sprockets, steering head, wheels,...) I torque it down.
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cryptomundo




PostSubject: Re: to torque or not to torque   Sun Aug 01, 2010 9:18 am


thump, that makes sense. so 20lbs sounds like a reasonable magic number. i have never worked on a bike until i got my wr and i recently bought a torque wrench in preparation to start taking the wheels off and on (i have a few things to install, new tires, 12t front, & flatland disk guard). the wrench i bought is a CDI 5-75 ft/lb. i was worried about trying to use it with lower lbs so thats why i decided to post my question.
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cryptomundo




PostSubject: Re: to torque or not to torque   Sun Aug 01, 2010 9:27 am

SheWolf wrote:
Nope, never bothered.

when looking for a torque wrench, i wanted to buy a good one. after looking at the price i was considering your method :) i know a tool does not need to be expensive to be good but i thought going with a company who seemed to specialize in this type of tool. anyway, i decided to buy and get some experience with it.
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thumpjump




PostSubject: Re: to torque or not to torque   Sun Aug 01, 2010 9:31 am

cryptomundo wrote:

...i was worried about trying to use it with lower lbs so thats why i decided to post my question.

Usually torque wrenches are most inaccurate at the extremes of their range. You also get what you pay for when it comes to torque wrenches. I can't imagine torquing something to 5lbs, it would be very loose, almost finger tight at that point.

20lbs a magic number....I can't really say that, it's just what I do. The pinch bolts for the forks are less than that, I believe, and those are kind of important ones, IMO. However, I have 2 torque wrenches and neither of them go below 20, that's why I just snug up to 20lbs:)
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cryptomundo




PostSubject: Re: to torque or not to torque   Sun Aug 01, 2010 9:42 am


yeah when i was replacing my front turn signals i was nervous i might over tighten those upper pinch bolts (they might be over tightened now) .. they are 17 ft lb and i was thinking to use the torque wrench just to see what 17 felt like.
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Akasy




PostSubject: With a lot of years....   Sun Aug 01, 2010 12:15 pm

in the aircraft maintenance business I learned long ago that a torque wrench is essential. It is a heck of a lot easier to use a torque wrench than drill out\tap\machine\buy new parts. Take a look on other forums and you will find it common where folks break off one of the four studs holding the front axle on XR Hondas. Same is true for everything from drain plugs to side cover bolts. In some cases specific sequence and torque levels are specified increasing in increments to the desired torque. Bearings are often torqued to set them and then back off to a lower level. There is never time to do it right but always time to do it over is an old saw but true. Also you should use a torque wrench in its mid range and yes they need calibration occassionally and no bending a bar torque wrench back to center does not insure it is accurate.
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cryptomundo




PostSubject: Re: to torque or not to torque   Sun Aug 01, 2010 2:51 pm


I ordered the wrong wrench .. I will need to torque over 75 ft lb. I read the exchange policy from toolsource.com and it looks like I should be able to exchange it for the CDI 10 - 100 ft lb version.
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X-Racer

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PostSubject: Re: to torque or not to torque   Mon Aug 02, 2010 1:25 am

A what ?
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thumpjump




PostSubject: Re: to torque or not to torque   Mon Aug 02, 2010 1:39 am

X-Racer wrote:
A what ?

Just off the top of my head, I'm pretty sure the rear axle nut is 90lbs. There's probably more too.
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X-Racer

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PostSubject: Re: to torque or not to torque   Mon Aug 02, 2010 1:51 am

cryptomundo wrote:
Who uses a torque wrench and when?

Response: A what ? < Rhetorical > IOW: I never use a torque wrench on anything. Ever.

Never lost torque, or snapped anything off either. Ever.

You've got to learn to teach your hands/arms how much is enough. ...either that, or carry a torque wrench on the trail.
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thumpjump




PostSubject: Re: to torque or not to torque   Mon Aug 02, 2010 2:22 am

X-Racer wrote:


...either that, or carry a torque wrench on the trail.

I saw many many parts rattled loose this last week on different bikes, Mostly KTMs My team mate lost his kickstand bolts and stuff that hold the springs on, license plate holders, water pump housings, etc... I just bring some lock tight with me on the trail and call it a day. I do have a feel for things, but a long time ago I over torqued a wheel axle nut and did some bearing damage on an XR650L.
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galland1

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PostSubject: Re: to torque or not to torque   Mon Aug 02, 2010 1:25 pm

Stripped enough stuff during my misspent youth that I have a pretty good WAG on most bolt torques. Still use the wrench on headbolts though.
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Tammy

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PostSubject: Re: to torque or not to torque   Mon Aug 02, 2010 5:04 pm

poser2 All us girls need is a 1/4 drive for most stuff. Too hard to bust a bolt with the power I'm packing in my arms..
I have 5 torque wrenches and only use them in the motor for the most part.

axle nut?? If you can't get it off with a riders wrench don't ride off road.
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SheWolf
Alpha Rider
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PostSubject: Re: to torque or not to torque   Mon Aug 02, 2010 11:58 pm

I'm in with you there. Torque for engine, the rest, wing it.

_________________
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0007onWR

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PostSubject: Re: to torque or not to torque   Tue Aug 03, 2010 12:26 am

I guess the real answer is if you have to ask about it you need a torque wrench
After a while you get a feel and don't need it for most things
You need 2 though, one in inch lbs for the light stuff
All Japanese is in newton meters, ft lbs etc is redundant at this point
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spadgitt




PostSubject: Re: to torque or not to torque   Wed Aug 04, 2010 8:33 am

SheWolf wrote:
I'm in with you there. Torque for engine, the rest, wing it.

Replace a lower fork leg on your Aprilia road race bike that a friend over-torqued a pinch bolt on and cracks it and you might change your mind on that one..........
That one cost me about $400 by the time it was all said and done. I love my torque wrench and my blue Loc-tite

Scott P.
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SheWolf
Alpha Rider
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PostSubject: Re: to torque or not to torque   Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:20 am

I've developed a good feel for tightness over the years (pulled wrenches for a living). I've been fortunate to have a few bolts break but only because the damned things were rusted on.

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A wolf's voice echoed down the mountain 'Share the bounty of the hunt with your brothers and sisters, and forever be strong and free.'
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Akasy




PostSubject: Re: to torque or not to torque   Wed Aug 04, 2010 12:31 pm

SheWolf wrote:
I've developed a good feel for tightness over the years (pulled wrenches for a living). I've been fortunate to have a few bolts break but only because the damned things were rusted on.

To each his own, but people new to working on their bikes need both sides of the issue presented and then they can at least make an informed choice. I don't consider breaking a rusted bolt a failure to apply proper torque--just a part of doing mechanical work on old stuff. Nor does using a torque wrench guarentee results--you have to know what you are doing--
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=603560

Then there are the ones from people using feel

http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=662472&highlight=studs+lower+axle+clamp

Here are a few comments on torque wrenches:

http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/techinfo/spark_plugs/installation.asp

http://www.arp-bolts.com/Tech/TechInstall.html

http://trailer-bodybuilders.com/mag/trucks_solving_wheel_retention/

Please explain to me why you would not use them?
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SheWolf
Alpha Rider
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PostSubject: Re: to torque or not to torque   Wed Aug 04, 2010 11:55 pm

I use them for tightening the wheel studs on the logging truck and trailer.

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A wolf's voice echoed down the mountain 'Share the bounty of the hunt with your brothers and sisters, and forever be strong and free.'
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J├Ąger
Admin
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PostSubject: Re: to torque or not to torque   Thu Aug 05, 2010 1:41 am

I have a younger brother who's been a journeyman HD mechanic for a little over 33 years now. He's worked on everything from the world's biggest haul trucks and draglines, to Challenger tanks, to stock cars.

That's a lot of time pulling wrenches, including on equipment that is big enough it is pretty hard to break. I notice that despite all the experience he has feeling what certain torques feel like, he still snugs most things up with a torque wrench.

If a guy with that much time spent actually pulling wrenches as his primary occupation reaches for a torque wrench, I think if I've got a brain I might reach for a torque wrench as well. Assuming that I have a better subjective feel for torque values than he does and so I don't need that wrench seems like a pretty dumb conclusion in my mind.

As usual, the beauty of it all is we can do whatever we like - it's our own bikes we're working on after all, whether the outcome is better or worse.
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X-Racer

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PostSubject: Re: to torque or not to torque   Thu Aug 05, 2010 1:47 am

akasy wrote:
Please explain to me why you would not use them?

It's really not rocket science. The choice is usually related to a) either having one (all the time), or b) the benefit (vs risk) of using, or NOT one.

The former is self-explanatory and the latter conclusion is pretty much related to engine components.


Thank-you ladies and gentlemen...


Next thread. "How do you clean your chain?" which will inevitably break into "What do you use to lube your chain?"

I do admire SheWolf's observations for torque levels. That kind of feel takes a lot of time (and experience) to develop. * DLS *
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mash100

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PostSubject: Re: to torque or not to torque   Fri Aug 06, 2010 8:54 am

Hey Akasy: I read the link to NGK spark plug installation - made a lot of sense. However, a bit off thread, what happens to the plug gap for all those that have modded their WRs to produce more power? Is there a table of power increase v plug gap? Suck it & see?? I believe NGK know their stuff, so this could require further investigation - after all, its a hi-tech bike.
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Akasy




PostSubject: Re: to torque or not to torque   Fri Aug 06, 2010 3:36 pm

mash100 wrote:
Hey Akasy: I read the link to NGK spark plug installation - made a lot of sense. However, a bit off thread, what happens to the plug gap for all those that have modded their WRs to produce more power? Is there a table of power increase v plug gap? Suck it & see?? I believe NGK know their stuff, so this could require further investigation - after all, its a hi-tech bike.

By far not an expert in this area...my best guess is that gap is\will not be a major concern. Most all current ignition systems are some form of CDI with supporting high voltage coil. With intake and exhaust mods the most that can be accomplished, in my view, is a bigger air intake charge which will result in maybe a slight increase in compression charge pressure. That could have an effect on the ionization voltage requrired to jump a fixed gap but with the voltage ranges experienced with most CDI systems I seriously doubt it would be significant. This discussion may help.....
http://www.howrah.org/spark-plug.html
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