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 Freedom of the press for the Canadians out there...

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Dancamp
Jäger
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Jäger
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Jäger



Freedom of the press for the Canadians out there... - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Freedom of the press for the Canadians out there...   Freedom of the press for the Canadians out there... - Page 2 EmptyMon Sep 06, 2010 3:30 pm

Dancamp wrote:
CBC's corporate policies
If someone thinks that they don't respect that, they just have to contact the ombudsman.
Ah yes, sounds great and wonderfully fair in true Canadian fashion. However, bitter reality usually being what carries the day, they might consider this recent piece of news:

CBC fights to keep secrets
By BRIAN LILLEY, Parliamentary Bureau

OTTAWA - CBC may demand accountability from the government but Canada’s taxpayer-funded broadcaster is going to court once again in order to keep its own affairs secret.

The CBC will square off against the information commissioner, an independent officer of Parliament, in a Montreal courtroom on Sept. 13. After hearing from a number of sources about problems with CBC’s response to access to information requests, the commissioner subpoenaed a number of files. The CBC refused.

It’s not the first run in between the state broadcaster and the Access to Information Act. The CBC became subject to the act in 2007, since then close to 900 complaints have been filed. While some of those cases were resolved and a small number were found to be without merit, as of June the information commissioner had 498 active complaints against CBC.

By comparison Canada Post, the organization to receive the second highest level of complaints, only had 116 complaints filed total.

In the case before the court on Sept. 13, the CBC is arguing that to release the information would jeopardize the Crown corporation’s “journalistic, creative or programming activities.”

Two days later on Sept. 15, the CBC will be in court again to keep more information secret.

In that case lawyer Michel Drapeau, who is an access to information specialist that works with Sun Media and other news organizations, will appeal a lower court decision that ruled the CBC did not need to hand over information in a number of other cases.

Drapeau said the CBC broke the law by missing deadlines and failing to provide any response to several requests, other than an acknowledgement that a request had been received.

In one case Drapeau described the document he did receive as being more redacted than the Afghan detainee documents that the CBC has demanded the Harper government release.

“There were 1,562 pages. Only about 30 pages had any information on them and that was just a statement that certain pages were not available,” said Drapeau. “The right of access is quasi-constitutional right and one of the foundations of democracy, that’s what the Supreme Court said. The public needs to be informed in order to make decisions.”

Some documents requested have gone without a reply for more than two years.

Lawyers for the information commissioner have argued in court that allowing the CBC to ignore access to information requests will weaken the entire system and that other government agencies and departments will copy what the CBC does.


900 complaints... Information requests that are supposed to actioned within 30 days going undealt with for over two years. The Ombudsman... well, obviously, not so helpful... Yes, the CBC keeps its promises and lives within it's stated policies - just as well every other political entity out there.

But then... what did you expect for a billion dollars in taxpayer funding a year?

However, this is kind of a sideshow to American George Soros' attempt to block anything that might not be left wing media from being granted a license in Canada. If you want to discuss the left wing ineptitude and secretiveness of CBC further, how about making it its own topic?
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xcel

xcel



Freedom of the press for the Canadians out there... - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Freedom of the press for the Canadians out there...   Freedom of the press for the Canadians out there... - Page 2 EmptyMon Sep 06, 2010 3:51 pm

Hi Jäger:
Jäger wrote:
Further, claiming that Al-Waleed's 7% interest in News Corp is either "new" or gives them "controlling interest" can only be an act of parroting leftist garbage specifically intended to attack Fox News or a glaring example of posting "facts" which in reality you know nothing about.
I highly doubt you even knew the interest that a Saudi principal had in Fox news until I told you about it. Been doing a lot of google research recently I suspect and have learned a few things in the process. You can thank me later Very happy

Because you do not know how corporations are structured or work, I can only leave it up to you or somebody else to teach you.
Quote :
" can only be an act of parroting leftist garbage specifically intended to attack Fox News or a glaring example of posting "facts" which in reality you know nothing about.
Imagine that, yet another child like statement. I bet you have problems with authority too?

I voted for Perot back in his day and declare myself an independent. On the other hand, are you a Neo-Con, right wing leaning voter with a nazi flag proudly displayed in your hovel? I hope you are not one of those types but I have suspicions?

Wayne
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Dancamp





Freedom of the press for the Canadians out there... - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Freedom of the press for the Canadians out there...   Freedom of the press for the Canadians out there... - Page 2 EmptyMon Sep 06, 2010 5:06 pm

Jäger,

I can see that the case will be resolved by a judge. Let him judge.

Do you suggest that Sun media would handle this kind of information willingly. I guess not since as a private company they don't have to under the access information act. No privately owned company would have to answer the requests that it is question of in the article that you posted here.

That's why a prefer something like CBC. I do not think that it is perfect. I just beleive that an organisation that has to be accountable the population through the governement is better that is accountable only to their shareholders.

Speaking of Sun media, I went on their site and didn't find any statement, rules or whatsoever concerning their ethics. Someone better than me on these things could find it if it exists. Terms and conditions Sun media That's all I found and i still prefer CBC's engagements.


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Jäger
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Jäger



Freedom of the press for the Canadians out there... - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Freedom of the press for the Canadians out there...   Freedom of the press for the Canadians out there... - Page 2 EmptyTue Sep 07, 2010 1:24 am

xcel wrote:
I highly doubt you even knew the interest that a Saudi principal had in Fox news until I told you about it. Been doing a lot of google research recently I suspect and have learned a few things in the process. You can thank me later Very happy

Because you do not know how corporations are structured or work, I can only leave it up to you or somebody else to teach you.
I'm probably not the only person who read about Al-Waleed and his investment in News Corp as far back in 2001 when Giuliani gave him his $10 million cheque back. Or in his later involvement in later Murdock family disputes. The left wing nutjobs didn't really notice much until recently, true. But I could be wrong.

I humbly bow to your self proclaimed business expertise. With your obviously vast business acumen, it should make the following questions simple:

Al-Waleed is now the new controlling interest in News Corp, not Rupert Murdock. True of False?

Al-Waleed and Murdock square off over a resolution at the AGM and it comes down to a vote. Al-Waleed wins and Murdock loses. True or false?

BTW, not that I doubt your all-encompassing financial expertise, but could you point me to an article in the Financial Post, Forbes, Fortune, etc that confirms your analysis that Al-Waleed is "the new controlling interest" in Fox News? It would go a long way to reassuring me you don't get your business analysis from the left wing wackjobs. I'd even accept any article you wrote announcing that which appeared in a business magazine.

Quote :
Quote :
" can only be an act of parroting leftist garbage specifically intended to attack Fox News or a glaring example of posting "facts" which in reality you know nothing about.
Imagine that, yet another child like statement. I bet you have problems with authority too?
The only people claiming that Al-Waleed is the "new controlling interest" in News Corp are the usual leftist idiots. You of course will have no problem showing I'm wrong by referencing an article in a reputable business magazine that announces Al-Waleed is the new controlling interest ni News Corp. News like that hardly gets missed in the business world, after all.

Other than that, it does occur to me that my main problem is probably with dissemblers, spin doctors, and hypocrites. It also occurs to me that people who have problem with authority generally don't choose, much less survive, 25 years in the military where their entire daily life is subject to somebody else's authority. I guess I'm okay there.

Quote :
On the other hand, are you a Neo-Con, right wing leaning voter with a nazi flag proudly displayed in your hovel? I hope you are not one of those types but I have suspicions?
Hmmmm.... am I Neo-con... right wing... Nazi!

Well, the Nazis were socialists (National Socialist German Workers' Party), so that's a bit hard to equate with being right wing (although it is a common comment made by nutbars). I suppose I should feel honoured to be accused of that by the guy who says the AMA encourages their members to ride without helmets and Al-Waleed is actually the controlling interest in News Corp, not Rupert Murdock.

Still, let me see...

A Neo-Con is a new conservative - a liberal/socialist who has seen the error of their ways (usually after being mugged either physically or symbolically by government) and become a conservative. Neo=new, Con=Conservative... Neo Con. I've never been a liberal or socialist, so I'm certainly not a Neo-Con. In fact, I can't think of a Neo-Con in politics today. Bush wasn't one, nor Cheney or any of that bunch - they sure as hell weren't liberals at any time of their lives. Why don't you tell me which Neo-Con I remind you of, and maybe that will help? Other than that, it appears I'm still a constitutionalist.

And my hovel. Ah yes, my hovel... How I love my hovels.

Tell me, which hovel are you referring to my having a Nazi flag in? The acreage in Flathead County that looks over the Flathead River and Glacier National Park and Big Mountain just a few miles away? Or the hovel in the Kootenays between two blue ribbon flyfishing streams, an hour away from two destination ski resorts and two National Parks?

You can keep your mansion in Illinois, thanks, I'll stay in my hovels. In fact, you can keep all of Illinois and its politicians as well.

I wish...
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Jäger
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Jäger



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PostSubject: Re: Freedom of the press for the Canadians out there...   Freedom of the press for the Canadians out there... - Page 2 EmptyTue Sep 07, 2010 1:48 am

Dancamp wrote:
Jäger,

I can see that the case will be resolved by a judge. Let him judge.
The point is Dan, it's in front of a judge because CBC doesn't follow the policies you provided a link to. Their Ombudsman you referenced is ignored by CBC. And they refuse to be open with the taxpayers who pay their freight and other news media covering them as news. Which also makes them hypocrites, because they are all over the government for fighting the release of information pertaining to operations in Afghanistan. They use gallons of virtual ink writing stories like that, while doing exactly the same thing themselves.

And why should you need to depend on a judge to make them comply with the law in the first place? CBC is constantly in the courts fighting battles like this. I don't know whether you see that as a problem or not, but a lot of other Canadians sure do.

Tell me Dan, do you have deep enough pockets to hire a lawyer to try and make CBC abide by their ethics guidelines and the requests of their Ombudsman? I sure don't. You have confidence in a government news organization that requires you to be rich if you feel a need to go to court and force them to obey the law and their own corporate guidelines? I don't.

Quote :
Do you suggest that Sun media would handle this kind of information willingly. I guess not since as a private company they don't have to under the access information act. No privately owned company would have to answer the requests that it is question of in the article that you posted here.
Exactly. Quebecor is a public company, traded on the open market. They don't get paid over a billion dollars in taxpayers' money annually to keep them running, they haven't had decades of protection from competition, and they're subject to all the regulatory rules regarding publicly traded companies. Not to mention resolutions proposed by stockholders and questions from the floor at AGMs. When did you get to submit a resolution to CBC on how it is run, Dan, or get to attend a meeting with the CEO as a shareholder and ask a question?

Quote :
That's why a prefer something like CBC. I do not think that it is perfect. I just beleive that an organisation that has to be accountable the population through the governement is better that is accountable only to their shareholders.
That would be the theory that government is always more ethical (especially with cabinet priviledge allowing them to seal documents and hide them for a century) than a publicly traded business? That government is always more fiscally responsible than a publicly traded company?

Is this the same CBC that is in court because it is consistently NOT accountable to the population that foots the bill for its existence? The same CBC that got caught feeding questions to Opposition Party MPs to ask in the House of Commons, and then reporting those questions as "breaking news that the Opposition has raised concerns"???

That's just one example of them repeatedly getting caught with their hand in the cookie jar, Dan. Given that, I have a hard time believing they're more ethical or more accountable than a private company.

More to the point, when your survival is guaranteed with annual infusions of taxpayer dollars, you have no bottom line, and no obligation to excel or perish. If CBC was actually that good, they wouldn't need a billion in taxpayer funding - Canadians would happily pay up for the value CBC claims they enrich our lives with.

Quote :
Speaking of Sun media, I went on their site and didn't find any statement, rules or whatsoever concerning their ethics. Someone better than me on these things could find it if it exists. Terms and conditions Sun media That's all I found and i still prefer CBC's engagements.

So you prefer CBC because they have a statement of ethics - that they consistently violate, that their Ombudsman can't correct, and that finally has to be appealed to a judge by those with enough money to take on CBC's battery of taxpayer paid lawyers?

And you place Sun behind them, even though they answer to stockholders and various other regulatory boards and commissions whose encumbrances CBC is free of?

Okay. Like I said, for the billion+ a year we give CBC, the legal battles we have to fight to try and make them follow their own ethics guidelines, I'm glad somebody is happy with it.
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xcel

xcel



Freedom of the press for the Canadians out there... - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Freedom of the press for the Canadians out there...   Freedom of the press for the Canadians out there... - Page 2 EmptyTue Sep 07, 2010 5:44 am

Hi Jager:

I doubt you had a clue.

Regarding the AMA, just because you turn a blind eye to their actions and statements does not mean the rest of us do... Do you perform a lot of goose-stepping to the one in charge as well?

Regarding controlling interest, it appears you do not know the difference between a controlling interest and a DBW controller...

Regarding the hovel, I can only hope and pray that flag is something you would never stand behind. It sure does sound like it with your out of control rants the past week or so however. Hopefully you are far more restrained in your day to day communication and profession.

Wayne
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Dancamp





Freedom of the press for the Canadians out there... - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Freedom of the press for the Canadians out there...   Freedom of the press for the Canadians out there... - Page 2 EmptyTue Sep 07, 2010 10:22 am

Jäger

The article you posted is in regard to the information access. This law is only related to government 's agencies. Even as a government agencies they not necessarily have to abide by everything thrown to them. The government has power over CBC's statutes and budget , not over the content of the information they convey to us.

Yes I prefer CBC to a media that doesn't have the same engagements, eventough we have to sue it from times to times. At least we have ground on which to force them. And keep searching you'll be able to find from who are most of the complaints that ends to court. Read the findings on the ombudsman page and see the results. Try to find something even close to that in a privately owbned network. People have to go straight to the court with private networks. They cam also go through the CRTC, but since it's a govrnement creature you might not trust it. It is better go straight to court with the costs associated with it.

As for the control that shareholders have on Quebecor, I invite you to buy some shares and try to critic their articles. Let me know of the results. Ask Sun's reporters who are their sources. Ask them to state the complete story in their articles instead of and after that try to win a court case against them if they refuse. You won't recieve anything because they don't have to. Conrad Blacks showed us what powers the shareholders have on a private company. There are no publication on how many suits privately owned medias are under. Neither the article you stated says from how many people are coming the 900 complaints. Would be fun to find out most of it comes from Sun media or associated papers.

In the end it is always better to take our information from how many sources as we can, not only from the sources that confort us in our own opinions. A mix of type of entreprises is better than concentration. Government"s creatures are influenced by the political staff in power, but it takes longer for the infliences to change something. Privately owned entreprises are influenced by profit and when and they get influenced instantly by their owner whatever it's political orientations. Either way the information is not reliable. And I don't have anything against profit when it is a consequence of a good job. I'm against profit as a tool of power over people and governements, but it's another matter.

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PostSubject: Re: Freedom of the press for the Canadians out there...   Freedom of the press for the Canadians out there... - Page 2 EmptyTue Sep 07, 2010 1:39 pm

xcel wrote:
Hi Jager:

I doubt you had a clue.

Regarding the AMA, just because you turn a blind eye to their actions and statements does not mean the rest of us do... Do you perform a lot of goose-stepping to the one in charge as well?

Regarding controlling interest, it appears you do not know the difference between a controlling interest and a DBW controller..
Goosestepping! Ohhhh... the right wing, socialist Nazi kind, no doubt.

Where were we? Oh yes:

Al-Waleed is now the new controlling interest in News Corp as you claimed, not Rupert Murdock. True of False?

Al-Waleed and Murdock square off over a resolution at the AGM and it comes down to a vote. Al-Waleed wins and Murdock loses. True or false?
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Jäger
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Jäger



Freedom of the press for the Canadians out there... - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Freedom of the press for the Canadians out there...   Freedom of the press for the Canadians out there... - Page 2 EmptyTue Sep 07, 2010 2:36 pm

Dancamp wrote:
Jäger

The article you posted is in regard to the information access. This law is only related to government 's agencies. Even as a government agencies they not necessarily have to abide by everything thrown to them.
Dan, they have FIVE HUNDRED complaints that the CBC Commissioner has found to be of sufficient merit to require investigation. Not everybody watches CBC, but Canada Post delivers everybody's mail daily and they only have about one fifth as many complaints.

Second, not all information is subject to access through information requests. But those requests do have to be actioned and responded to, even it is to reject the request. There are requests that have been outstanding for TWO YEARS - CBC is dealing with requests they don't like by simply not responding to them.

What it boils down to is CBC is NOT following their own governance documents, they're ignoring their Ombudsman, they're not complying with the law, and they are now arguing that they should have some special exemption from the law to protect their "artistic" bent or whatever. What are these - state secrets?

Obviously, these hundreds of complaints don't come from media outlets - those organizations usually bundle their requests, and there certainly aren't hundreds of media organizations in Canada to begin with, much less that many wanting to do investigative news on CBC. So how does the lone taxpayer funding CBC get his complaint dealt with, Dan - do you have deep enough pockets to pay your own legal counsel to take on CBC's taxpayer-funded staff lawyers? Probably not - effectively silencing your complaint through death by lawyer.

The idea that the corporation whose existence is to help bond all Canadians together can only do that job by not following the law in regard to disclosing information on what they are doing and how they are operate is ridiculous. You can't do your job as a public broadcaster, funded by the public's taxes, without operating behind a curtain of secrecy? Oh, how Canadian! They could tell us, but then they'd have to kill us.

Quote :
The government has power over CBC's statutes and budget , not over the content of the information they convey to us.

Well, I suppose you could even argue the opposite and say that, since CBC has been caught several times feeding questions to Opposition MPs to ask in the Commons and then presenting the exchange as news that the Opposition raised the issue, that CBC has power over the content of the business of Parliament, eh?

These court cases have nothing to do with forcing CBC to change their programming - they have to do with the fact CBC won't comply with their own mandate, won't comply with their Ombudsman's direction, and won't comply with the laws applying to them as a Crown corporation.

What do you think the CBC would report if... oh... the RCMP, Veterans Affairs, or some other Crown entity were acting EXACTLY as they are, had that many complaints, and was now in court trying to avoid producing documents subject to information requests? And have you ever seen a single mention of this in CBC? No? Well, to me that sure looks like CBC censoring the news to protect themselves from further interest from the public that pays their freight. If they don't report it, I guess it never happened.

No bias there.

Quote :
Yes I prefer CBC to a media that doesn't have the same engagements, eventough we have to sue it from times to times.
As I said Dan, for a billion dollars in taxpayer dollars a year, I'm glad somebody finds it money well spent.

Quote :
People have to go straight to the court with private networks. They cam also go through the CRTC, but since it's a govrnement creature you might not trust it. It is better go straight to court with the costs associated with it.
As far as I can tell, it seems you might as well go straight to court with CBC as well, instead of wasting your time with the Ombudsman and two years of waiting for CBC to comply with the law and their own governance documents.

Quote :
In the end it is always better to take our information from how many sources as we can, not only from the sources that confort us in our own opinions.
Yeah. I just don't think a broadcaster needs to be kept around to the tune of a billion dollars in taxpayer money a year. If it is really all that valuable, Canadians will show they value it with their wallets. But the reality is, if CBC's existence were dependent on the direct financial support of the Canadians they claim love them and value them as part of the Canadian fabric, they'd be bankrupt in a month. People who will pay hundreds of dollars a month for their various forms of media wouldn't pay a few bucks for CBC. Which is why they need obligatory carriage in Canada along with over a billion in taxpayer dollars, and protection from competition like Sun. If Sun does indeed turn out to have the conservative bent that Avaaz is screaming about, how many conservative minded Canadians will choose Sun news over CBC news? There goes the neighborhood - and CBC's viewer numbers drop accordingly.

CBC is going to go under sooner or later - at least as it exists now. Even the most friendly of governments can't protect it from increasingly fewer numbers of Canadians interested in what they have to peddle. They're a financial black hole and the generally shoddy and/or elitist programming is why they can't compete on the open market with commercial broadcasters. You can disagree with that, of course, but if their programming was desired by most Canadians, they wouldn't need a billion dollar handout each year, and protection from competition.
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Dancamp





Freedom of the press for the Canadians out there... - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Freedom of the press for the Canadians out there...   Freedom of the press for the Canadians out there... - Page 2 EmptyTue Sep 07, 2010 5:02 pm

Quote :

Dan, they have FIVE HUNDRED complaints that the CBC Commissioner has found to be of sufficient merit to require investigation.

Second, not all information is subject to access through information requests. But those requests do have to be actioned and responded to, even it is to reject the request. There are requests that have been outstanding for TWO YEARS - CBC is dealing with requests they don't like by simply not responding to them.

I never said that CBC is perfect, I just pretend that it is a good element to have to balance what the privately owned medias publishes.

Quote :

What it boils down to is CBC is NOT following their own governance documents, they're ignoring their Ombudsman, they're not complying with the law, and they are now arguing that they should have some special exemption from the law to protect their "artistic" bent or whatever. What are these - state secrets?

The CBC"s defense must have a certain legal basis, the court will evaluate that. Once done the judgment will be published and they will have to live with it.

Quote :
Obviously, these hundreds of complaints don't come from media outlets - those organizations usually bundle their requests, and there certainly aren't hundreds of media organizations in Canada to begin with, much less that many wanting to do investigative news on CBC. So how does the lone taxpayer funding CBC get his complaint dealt with, Dan - do you have deep enough pockets to pay your own legal counsel to take on CBC's taxpayer-funded staff lawyers? Probably not - effectively silencing your complaint through death by lawyer.

Then again, private cie. by not taking any engagements whatsoever don't even give ground to such procedures not even an ombudsman.


Quote :

The idea that the corporation whose existence is to help bond all Canadians together can only do that job by not following the law in regard to disclosing information on what they are doing and how they are operate is ridiculous. You can't do your job as a public broadcaster, funded by the public's taxes, without operating behind a curtain of secrecy? Oh, how Canadian! They could tell us, but then they'd have to kill us.

Quote :
Well, I suppose you could even argue the opposite and say that, since CBC has been caught several times feeding questions to Opposition MPs to ask in the Commons and then presenting the exchange as news that the Opposition raised the issue, that CBC has power over the content of the business of Parliament, eh?

Yes we could. I guess CBC has its insight and privately owned medias to. What's your point ?

Quote :
These court cases have nothing to do with forcing CBC to change their programming - they have to do with the fact CBC won't comply with their own mandate, won't comply with their Ombudsman's direction, and won't comply with the laws applying to them as a Crown corporation.

Again, at least the ombudsman settles some of the complaints that would not have any ground if it was another media.

Quote :
What do you think the CBC would report if... oh... the RCMP, Veterans Affairs, or some other Crown entity were acting EXACTLY as they are, had that many complaints, and was now in court trying to avoid producing documents subject to information requests? And have you ever seen a single mention of this in CBC? No? Well, to me that sure looks like CBC censoring the news to protect themselves from further interest from the public that pays their freight. If they don't report it, I guess it never happened.

These crown entity don't have that many complaints ? I don't know. I heard of a couple myself concerning the RCMP. There were interesting stories around many other entities. With Gomery we saw that even in our governement there are people that would do anything to their own benefits. This has to do with the fact that where there are men there are some that we can't trust.


Quote :
As far as I can tell, it seems you might as well go straight to court with CBC as well, instead of wasting your time with the Ombudsman and two years of waiting for CBC to comply with the law and their own governance documents.

Some of the complaints went through before court, better some than none. I repeat, we don't even half a fraction of that with private medias.



Quote :
Yeah. I just don't think a broadcaster needs to be kept around to the tune of a billion dollars in taxpayer money a year. If it is really all that valuable, Canadians will show they value it with their wallets. But the reality is, if CBC's existence were dependent on the direct financial support of the Canadians they claim love them and value them as part of the Canadian fabric, they'd be bankrupt in a month.


If all the privately owned medias would be as virtuous as you expect CBC to be, I would be the first to say that we don't need CBC, are they ?



Quote :
People who will pay hundreds of dollars a month for their various forms of media wouldn't pay a few bucks for CBC. Which is why they need obligatory carriage in Canada along with over a billion in taxpayer dollars, and protection from competition like Sun. If Sun does indeed turn out to have the conservative bent that Avaaz is screaming about, how many conservative minded Canadians will choose Sun news over CBC news? There goes the neighborhood - and CBC's viewer numbers drop accordingly.

The budget allowed to CBC is not all for the news so it's not fair to always blow the one billion thing. Actually CBC costs more than half less than it costs in Britain or in France for their national network. In Great Britain it costs 124$ by taxpayer, 77$ in France and 33$ in Canada.


Quote :
CBC is going to go under sooner or later - at least as it exists now. Even the most friendly of governments can't protect it from increasingly fewer numbers of Canadians interested in what they have to peddle. They're a financial black hole and the generally shoddy and/or elitist programming is why they can't compete on the open market with commercial broadcasters. You can disagree with that, of course, but if their programming was desired by most Canadians, they wouldn't need a billion dollar handout each year, and protection from competition.

It might, we'll see. It's the pressure from the population that will decide. As for black holes, there are many especially when it comes to Crown's entity. Each one considers itself a necessity and each one asks for more budget. It always turns back to a question of ideology.

With the concentration of the press I think that we have to keep CBC. They serve to keep a balance in our informations network.

You talk about complains that don't get through ?

Here in Quebec we have the "Conseil de presse". It is independant from the governement. It is financed at 60% by it's members and 40% by public funds. It's been created to protect the liberty of information and free press. All it's members are people from the press in Quebec. Here is their website Conseil de presse du Québec.

It is an organisation to which adhesion is of free will. Their new president is John Gomery.

Quebecor was a member as owner of Sun media. They retired from the council last year because they didn't like the treatment given to the complaints surrounding their papers. Quebecor was a founding member of the council but it was then under the property of It's founder, Pierre péladeau. Now it is under the control of Pierre Karl Péladeau son of the founder. What will happen with any complaint anyone could have ?

The only solution I see is to have a canadian press council with enough members named half from the right and half from the left. I bet they would be drowned under the complaints.
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xcel

xcel



Freedom of the press for the Canadians out there... - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Freedom of the press for the Canadians out there...   Freedom of the press for the Canadians out there... - Page 2 EmptyTue Sep 07, 2010 6:31 pm

Hi Jager:

You still do not understand how a corporation is taken over and it only takes a large interest... Until you do, this is going to go nowhere.

Wayne
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Dancamp





Freedom of the press for the Canadians out there... - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Freedom of the press for the Canadians out there...   Freedom of the press for the Canadians out there... - Page 2 EmptyTue Sep 07, 2010 6:42 pm

xcel wrote:
Hi Jager:

You still do not understand how a corporation is taken over and it only takes a large interest... Until you do, this is going to go nowhere.

Wayne

Hi excel,

Did you ever heard of reverse takeover ?

This is something that the creator of powercorp used to get control over some entreprises.



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xcel

xcel



Freedom of the press for the Canadians out there... - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Freedom of the press for the Canadians out there...   Freedom of the press for the Canadians out there... - Page 2 EmptyTue Sep 07, 2010 7:35 pm

Hi Dan:

Yes, but I do not like them. The acquired company’s shareholders usually get the short end of the stick as the control is passed onto the exec's and insiders hands with the possibility of a share sale lock occurring afterwards. Easier for exec's to pull off but far less transparent and not so great for the acquired company shareholder imho.

Wayne
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Dancamp





Freedom of the press for the Canadians out there... - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Freedom of the press for the Canadians out there...   Freedom of the press for the Canadians out there... - Page 2 EmptyTue Sep 07, 2010 7:55 pm

xcel wrote:
Hi Dan:

Yes, but I do not like them. The acquired company’s shareholders usually get the short end of the stick as the control is passed onto the exec's and insiders hands with the possibility of a share sale lock occurring afterwards. Easier for exec's to pull off but far less transparent and not so great for the acquired company shareholder imho.

Wayne

The question wasn't about liking it or not. It is just to illustrate how without owning the majority of the shares you can control a cie.. In a reverse takeover you don't need to own a share to have power. You just have to control a cie. that generates most of the cash and you hold the mother cie. by the balls.


Are you also aware of how chapter 11 law in the US and LACC in Canada works and it's effects ? These laws are about private cies in both countries if I'm right.
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xcel

xcel



Freedom of the press for the Canadians out there... - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Freedom of the press for the Canadians out there...   Freedom of the press for the Canadians out there... - Page 2 EmptyWed Sep 08, 2010 2:24 am

Hi Dan:

I have no idea how Chapter 11 works in Canada and only a little knowledge how it works here in the US.

Wayne
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Jäger
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Jäger



Freedom of the press for the Canadians out there... - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Freedom of the press for the Canadians out there...   Freedom of the press for the Canadians out there... - Page 2 EmptyWed Sep 08, 2010 5:57 am

xcel wrote:
Hi Jager:

You still do not understand how a corporation is taken over and it only takes a large interest... Until you do, this is going to go nowhere.
Oh, okay: school us teacher:

Al-Waleed is now the new controlling interest in News Corp as you claimed, not Rupert Murdock. True of False?

Al-Waleed and Murdock square off over a resolution at the AGM and it comes down to a vote. Al-Waleed wins and Murdock loses. True or false?

Let's face it - getting you to stand behind your claim that Al-Waleed now taken over from Rupert Murdoch as the controlling interest in News Corp just isn't going to happen, is it?

No more than we can ever expect you to give a straight answer as to whether you support the same laws and legal sanctions for smokers, fatties, and others who endanger their health like you advocate and support for motorcyclists who won't wear helmets.

Three true or false questions, very simple. But you won't answer even one of them. Because one thing you will never do is stand behind the comments you make. You just slip and slide, dip and dodge.

Now excuse me while I go unpack from an afternoon behind my "hovel"

Freedom of the press for the Canadians out there... - Page 2 Img_3510
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Jäger
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Jäger



Freedom of the press for the Canadians out there... - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Freedom of the press for the Canadians out there...   Freedom of the press for the Canadians out there... - Page 2 EmptyWed Sep 08, 2010 6:36 am

Dancamp wrote:
I never said that CBC is perfect, I just pretend that it is a good element to have to balance what the privately owned medias publishes.
Fair enough. Except they aren't even halfway to perfect. Tell me, what do you think would be the public reaction if it was uncovered that Fox News had repeatedly been feeding the Conservatives questions to ask the Liberal Government when the Conservatives were the opposition, and then reporting the "news"?

Would Fox still have a broadcasting license in Canada? I don't think they would. Why then, does CBC provide anything remotely resembling "balance"? Why does CBC still have a license when they operate like that - I don't see any journalistic integrity there.

Quote :
Then again, private cie. by not taking any engagements whatsoever don't even give ground to such procedures not even an ombudsman.
They face something worse. Something with teeth. Something called the CRTC. Who regularly pull broadcast licenses. Again, would Fox still have a broadcast license if the CRTC caught them doing what CBC has repeatedly done?

Quote :
Quote :
Well, I suppose you could even argue the opposite and say that, since CBC has been caught several times feeding questions to Opposition MPs to ask in the Commons and then presenting the exchange as news that the Opposition raised the issue, that CBC has power over the content of the business of Parliament, eh?
Yes we could. I guess CBC has its insight and privately owned medias to. What's your point ?
Probably that when the supposedly independent, supposedly unbiased public broadcaster manufactures issues and "news" by handing questions to Opposition backbenchers to present as questions in the House, you aren't getting your "balance" to all those slanted private broadcasters like Sun everyone is so worried about.

Quote :
Again, at least the ombudsman settles some of the complaints that would not have any ground if it was another media.
And again, if a broadcaster like Fox ever used opposition MPs to manufacture issues and news in the House, do you really think the CRTC wouldn't pull their license? They pull them for one hell of a lot less.

Quote :
These crown entity don't have that many complaints ? I don't know.
Nobody else knows either. Because CBC doesn't report stories where people have to spend tens of thousands of dollars to get them to comply with the law, to act within their mandate. But they sure act as media proctologists when the government has to be taken to court to get them to comply with information requests. They don't report stories when they have hundreds of complaints against them. But once again, they put on the rubber gloves and leave no orifice unexplored when reporting on the number of complaints against RCMP, against Corrections, etc.

Nobody knows, because CBC - the impartial news media we fork over a billion dollar a year for - makes sure it won't be news unless some other media outlet clues in.

Quote :
I repeat, we don't even half a fraction of that with private medias.
I repeat, the CRTC regularly pulls broadcast licenses. I think we can agree the CRTC is never going to pull the CBC's license. Would a broadcaster with as many complaints about violations of the law applying to them have their broadcast license for long? Not likely.


Quote :
If all the privately owned medias would be as virtuous as you expect CBC to be, I would be the first to say that we don't need CBC, are they?
If CBC were nearly as virtuous as the private broadcast companies, I might think they were worth continuing to cover in taxpayer money. But of course, CBC never has to worry about the CRTC pulling their broadcast license.

Quote :
The budget allowed to CBC is not all for the news so it's not fair to always blow the one billion thing. Actually CBC costs more than half less than it costs in Britain or in France for their national network. In Great Britain it costs 124$ by taxpayer, 77$ in France and 33$ in Canada.
Yeah, it is fair to bring up the one billion plus thing. Because that's what CBC in all it's elitist, mediocre forms costs Canadian taxpayers each year. If it had any value to Canadians, it wouldn't have to be kept on life support with money squeezed out of taxpayers - people who value it so highly would pay to keep it. And comparing Canada to that socialist train wreck called Britain is pretty faint praise at best. That's like a mugger telling you that you should be happy, he only took half your money and left you enough for cab fare home.

Quote :
With the concentration of the press I think that we have to keep CBC. They serve to keep a balance in our informations network.
Yes, we need to blow a billion a year on a broadcaster that makes a practice of feeding questions to Opposition MPs to create "issues Canadians raised in Parliament". That's balance for you all right, rather than the agenda that private broadcasters have.

I have a very good friend who has been a CBC specialty reporter for 30 years. The stories she has regularly told me over the years about editing practice, direction mandated on how a story will be run, etc leave absolutely no question in my mind that the CBC snake den needs to be killed off, and the sooner the better. Unless of course anyone can figure out a way to enforce impartiality and balance out of the CBC - and that ain't going to happen precisely because it is a haven for professional bureaucrats.

Quote :
Now it is under the control of Pierre Karl Péladeau son of the founder. What will happen with any complaint anyone could have ?
You think Sun broadcasting is going to get a special exemption from the CRTC oversight? I don't.

BTW, you don't need a federal license to publish a newspaper. You do need a federal license from the CRTC to be a broadcaster.
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Dancamp





Freedom of the press for the Canadians out there... - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Freedom of the press for the Canadians out there...   Freedom of the press for the Canadians out there... - Page 2 EmptyWed Sep 08, 2010 10:16 am

Jäger,

Obviously all this thread leads to nothing.

You think you hold the whole truth and I think nonody holds the whole truth.

Wish you well being.

Dan
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deerHater





Freedom of the press for the Canadians out there... - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Freedom of the press for the Canadians out there...   Freedom of the press for the Canadians out there... - Page 2 EmptyWed Sep 08, 2010 10:17 am

Jäger wrote:
Now excuse me while I go unpack from an afternoon behind my "hovel"

Freedom of the press for the Canadians out there... - Page 2 Img_3510
What, no Geese walking around? poser2

Nice shot, er, pic. thumb
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Jäger
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Jäger



Freedom of the press for the Canadians out there... - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Freedom of the press for the Canadians out there...   Freedom of the press for the Canadians out there... - Page 2 EmptyWed Sep 08, 2010 5:09 pm

Dancamp wrote:
Jäger,

Obviously all this thread leads to nothing.
Not at all - I think publicizing George Soros and Avaaz and how they operate with lies, spin, and hypocrisy is something. Publicizing that, whether on the part of an organization or an individual with an agenda is never a bad thing.

Quote :
You think you hold the whole truth and I think nonody holds the whole truth.
No. What I think is hypocrites and liars like Avaaz need to be exposed. I'll hope that most people are intelligent enough to take it from there.

Beyond that, I doubt any organization holds the whole truth. But I do know that by their actions CBC has proven themselves to be no more ethical than Sun or anyone else, nor less biased, nor are they any more accountable. So being as they're just part of the main herd, they don't deserve a billion dollars in taxpayer funding and protection. That taxpayer funding should be removed and they should compete in the market with the rest of the broadcast companies. Like Sun, they could then succeed or fail on their ability to gain the approval of the viewers/listeners they claim to serve.
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Jäger
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Jäger



Freedom of the press for the Canadians out there... - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Freedom of the press for the Canadians out there...   Freedom of the press for the Canadians out there... - Page 2 EmptyWed Sep 08, 2010 5:14 pm

deerHater wrote:
What, no Geese walking around?
They prefer to hang around down on the hayfields and golf courses down in the valley. And any hanging around outside of those areas are likely to find their flight cancelled. Different mindset towards geese and the solution around here than you'll find in Seattle, Vancouver, Toronto, etc. The solution is usually referred to as "#2's".

Quote :
Nice shot, er, pic. thumb
Pretty easy around here. Point camera in direction of choice; push shutter. A blind man could get nice pictures in the slums my hovels are located in.
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