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 WR250 R/X built in Programmer

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mordicai




PostSubject: WR250 R/X built in Programmer   Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:16 pm

According to this post on ADV there is a CO Programmer built in to our speedo unit. Anybody know about this? :

CO Mode
Quote:
Originally Posted by z@ch
Let's get some DETAILS!
Dirtytrixx400 showed me this. He's been running the same FMF PC4 pipe as I put on for a year and does not use an aftermarket fuel programmer.

To access the controls for making these changes, you must first make a jumper wire to ground (did mine to the negative battery terminal) from the "extra" black wire in the connector for the lean angle sensor underneath the seat. There are three wires on one side of the connector that are used by the LAS and another black one on the opposite side that connects to nothing. This is probably used by the dealer to connect to Yamaha's diagnostic software.

Anyway, after you've done that, you can then enter the "CO" mode to lean out or richen up the air/fuel mixture. The range is from +30 to -30 (sixty-one possible settings including "0").

Plus numbers richen the mixture; minus number make it more lean. Mine from the factory was set at -3 and after riding a bit I changed it first to 0 and it's now set at +2. The nice thing is that you can adjust it on the fly to as many different settings as you want and it saves the last number used when the key is turned off.

To access the CO settings you do the following (after grounding the above-mentioned wire):

1. Hold down the "reset" and "select 1" buttons on the insturment cluster at the same time.

2. Turn on the key (but don't press the starter button) while continuing to hold these two buttons. After 8 seconds the display will read "diag" or something like that.

3. Once in the "diag" screen, press the "select 1" button only. The display will change to "CO"

4. Press both "reset" and "select 1" again (same as step 1) and after 3 seconds the display will show "0" on the left and "C1" on the right.

5. Again press both "reset" and "select 1" for another three seconds and the display changes to "C1" at top right with a number shown below. This number is the current CO setting (it will be somewhere from -30 to +30)

6. Now start the bike. At the top left you'll have a digital tachometer. Also, while in this mode no mileage is recorded on the odometer.

7. To change a setting, use the "select 1" button to make the numbers higher (+) or the "reset" button to make them lower (-). When you turn off the ignition the bike is set to whatever number you had set at that time.

Dirtytrixx400 told me that you can't tell anything from just blipping the throttle in the garage. So what we did was ride for a bit with the stock setting of -3. After riding for a few minutes I confirmed there was a hesitation off idle when opening the throttle.

Next we changed to a setting of 0 (three points richer) and the hesitation improved, but was still there a little.

Finally changed it to +2 and the bike RIPPED! He said I may need to tweak it a bit more later when the weather warms up. But it's very easy to do.

Yesterday I did a ride of around 180 miles (about 40 of which were trails and gravel roads) and this setting worked great. No hiccups or issues.

The mods we did to the bike included:

FMF pipe
K&N air filter
12t CS (replaced stock 13t)

Also:
Removed top of air box (including flapper, etc)
Removed EXUP system
Removed AIS system

Hope this is helpful for you.

Dirtytrixx400 is "da man" when it comes to this stuff. I just listened and learned from him. Until he told me I didn't need the aftermarket programmer, I'd hesitated about buying a pipe (since the programmers can cost as much or more than the pipe) and without changing the pipe, I saw no real need to make the other mods as the bike was running fine.

BTW the total cost for the above mods was under $300! And they transformed the bike. Now it easily wheelies over mud puddles or small logs in second and I can "steer" with the throttle in turns on gravel or dirt roads much better.
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Jäger
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PostSubject: Re: WR250 R/X built in Programmer   Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:39 pm

mordicai wrote:
According to this post on ADV there is a CO Programmer built in to our speedo unit. Anybody know about this?

There were some posts on it sometime around last fall I think, but not sure whether it was here or over in the monster ADV thread.

The search function is your friend; if you search on "CO" or look at Dirtytrixx400 posting history, it shouldn't take too long to find.
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jdberry




PostSubject: Re: WR250 R/X built in Programmer   Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:52 pm

anyone try this?
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mordicai




PostSubject: Re: WR250 R/X built in Programmer   Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:53 pm

I've already found it Jager. What I'm asking is has anybody on the forum done this! If this is true, then the whole programmer thing is a scam??
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Dancamp




PostSubject: Re: WR250 R/X built in Programmer   Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:58 pm

A progammer allows you to fine tune differently according to certain conditions like the gear you're on the throttle position and the rpm. The CO that is stock on the WR allows you to make an adjustment that is the same across the range of speed and RPM and whatever the gear.
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mordicai




PostSubject: Re: WR250 R/X built in Programmer   Mon Feb 14, 2011 10:10 pm

Dancamp wrote:
A progammer allows you to fine tune differently according to certain conditions like the gear you're on the throttle position and the rpm. The CO that is stock on the WR allows you to make an adjustment that is the same across the range of speed and RPM and whatever the gear.
Ah, Thanks Dancamp for the simple answer. Nothing is as it seems......
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jdberry




PostSubject: Re: WR250 R/X built in Programmer   Mon Feb 14, 2011 10:12 pm

jdberry wrote:
anyone try this?
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mordicai




PostSubject: Re: WR250 R/X built in Programmer   Mon Feb 14, 2011 10:15 pm

It seems however, that when doing airbox mods with a new muffler, one could could deal with the problem of the bike running to lean, by just adjusting the CO with the speedo. No real need for a programmer.
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jdberry




PostSubject: Re: WR250 R/X built in Programmer   Mon Feb 14, 2011 10:32 pm

You do it first Mordicai and tell me what you think. Which wire needs to be grounded?
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Jäger
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PostSubject: Re: WR250 R/X built in Programmer   Mon Feb 14, 2011 10:34 pm

mordicai wrote:
I've already found it Jager. What I'm asking is has anybody on the forum done this! If this is true, then the whole programmer thing is a scam??
As I said earlier, there was a long thread on this either here or over on ADV - I'm pretty sure it was here. I can't recall whether those who did it felt they got an improvement or not, but the thread exists.

Consider that, logically, one adjustment that effects the entire operating range either up or down is not going to be the same as being able to break that range down into tuning six, eight, ten, etc successive zones and then fine tuning each up or down as required.

I don't have a programmer and don't think I'm in the market for one. My best guess would be that, if one universal CO adjustment up or down makes a difference at some point - maybe even more than one point - in the operating range, then the ability to fine tune adjustments both up AND down at the same time will probably give you better results.

I'll further guess that a universal change may not just give you a little increase somewhere, but also quite possibly an improvement in one range and a performance loss in another. That might even vary from bike to bike.

For those wanting every bit of performance they can get out of the bike, I suspect a programmer is not a scam but money well spent. I also suspect a lot of us just wandering around the countryside on stock bikes taking in the view (like me) probably don't care.
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jdberry




PostSubject: Re: WR250 R/X built in Programmer   Mon Feb 14, 2011 10:51 pm

I'm not sayin a tuner is a scam. It just makes sense to me that if the bike is lean in stock setting, that adding a little fuel accross the board would be a improvement. May even make a few of us happy. Now which wire do I need to ground?
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WRXer




PostSubject: Re: WR250 R/X built in Programmer   Mon Feb 14, 2011 10:55 pm

It is basically no different than a pilot screw. It only effects idle. A programmer replacement it is not--not even close.
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Jäger
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PostSubject: Re: WR250 R/X built in Programmer   Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:21 pm

WRXer wrote:
It is basically no different than a pilot screw. It only effects idle. A programmer replacement it is not--not even close.
I have a foggy memory that some techie type said it affected the first 15% of throttle or something like that. And not the same as the idle adjustment, which is a different adjustment on the bike.

Sooner or later, somebody is going to go look up that original thread...
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mordicai




PostSubject: Re: WR250 R/X built in Programmer   Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:25 pm

Wow, what a trip. Jager's telling me what he thinks might be the case but he really doesn't know anything about it because he's never done it. Jeez guys. May be at some time someone on this forum who has actually done this will come on and enlighten us. The guy on ADV thinks it;s the cat's meow and he HAS done it. I don't need max efficiency. What I want to do is get rid of the stock muffler and replace it with a Yosh. If I do that I'll probably go ahead and do all the air box stuff. If I do all this my bike is going to be too lean. If I can fix it without having to pay hundred of dollars for a programmer I'll be a happy lad.
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WRXer




PostSubject: Re: WR250 R/X built in Programmer   Tue Feb 15, 2011 12:07 am

Granted, this evidence is no where near as concrete as comments like "it rips" or the butt dynos of the masses who can placebo themselves into thinking anything but I'll do my best to convince you. I have reasearched this across the internet & various Yamaha models. The C corresponds to the cylinder---as you guessed it the WR has 1 so it only has C1. The V twin cruisers have C1 & C2---yep because they have 2 cylinders. The R6/R1 have 4, well, because you know. There are budget bikes like the FZ6 that pair cylinders together with "economy" ECUs rather than fully dedicated units so they are the lone exception.

Usually someone will spout about the RACE ECUs that used to be available for the R6 that COULD vary the map. First, these are RACE ECUs & what what would be the point if your stock ECU could do the same? Second they are RACE ie no EPA. Third C1 on the RACE ECU's only controlled <3,000 rpm so if you want to believe this since the WR has ONLY C1 that would be all you could adjust. 4th even if it did adjust it only shifts it--not reshapes it like a programmer. See here:

http://www.cappojim.com/uploads/how_to/fuel_map/04R6GB.pdf

Next look here at the DYNO GRAPH. See the three runs at -50, 0, & +50 CO? Look at the AF ratio. Large effect just off idle & little after. Also note power curve is basically the same for all--just the initial AF changes with -50 being very lean (>16:1) & +50 being rich (<12:1).



http://www.sportbikes.net/forums/1721614-post12.html

Additionaly read any post from "noordinaryjoe" in this thread

http://www.r1-forum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62758&pp=20&page=6

He has actual TEST DATA of the effect of CO. Some highlights:

Quote :
Here's some data from my bike and adjustments that I've made:

2004 R1 using individual probes from a four-gas analyzer into each header pipe.
(drilling and welding of 6mm flange-nuts onto each header pipe necessary)

stock CO settings:

0 12 4 2

stock gas measurements:

1 3.65 CO 530 HC 13.0 CO2
2 4.12 CO 676 HC 12.4 CO2
3 3.59 CO 590 HC 13.1 CO2
4 3.27 CO 504 HC 12.9 CO2

I went for an arbitrary starting baseline of 4.20 CO for all cylinders and ended up with the following CO settings:

9 13 14 17

basic math then tells me that each 'click' of adjustment is good for about a .06667% change in CO level.

By balancing the CO levels I effectively compensated for variations in the flow/pressures of the fuel injectors by 'telling' the ECM to change the 'duty cycle' or amount of time each injector is left open so that the fuel delivery is effectively the same.

This is a simple way of achieving what Mark from Factory goes into here:

http://www.factorypro.com/products/...lean_match.html

Since the ECU uses this baseline data to calculate fuel delivery throughout the rev range it should stay reasonably balanced from idle to redline. (much like fuel/air mixture screws set the tone for everything that happens in a carb from idle on up) This simply wouldn't be possible without a gas analyzer and individual cylinder probes.

NOW - if I were to add a powercommander, which changes/compensates all cylinders equally, it too would stay balanced because the baseline is pre-set already and the powercommander adjustments just 'stack' on top of the ECU's basic information.

Now...why did I set it to 4.2 CO? that equates to an air/fuel ratio of 12.92:1 - which is a little rich for optimal power, but it gives me nice 'off-idle' power delivery characteristics when cracking open the throttle.

(BTW my bike is exclusively a race bike in a production class where very few non-OEM modifications are allowed..even stock exhaust must be maintained.)

Because I don't have a dyno available I can't 'see' what the ECU is doing to this CO and air/fuel ratio as RPM's increase but I can 'read the plugs' and get a remarkably accurate reading of what's happening in the combustion chamber out on the track. Presumably the richer the baseline the richer it will be at higher RPM's and vise-versa - but again I don't know by how much because I don't have Yamaha's algorithym, nor do I have a dyno with gas analyzer to map it out on.

At 4.2 CO my plugs still look a bit lean so I'm going to try 5.0 CO (12.63:1 air/fuel ratio) which should be 12 more clicks of adjustment to each cylinder and see if that is enough to carry to the higher RPM's where it gets run at the track...then I'll read the plugs again and see.

When I get as far as I can on my own I will *finally* go to a dyno and fine tune it.

Quote :
The 'c' designation of C1, C2, ect...is, by Yamaha's own literature, indicating each individual cylinder # and is the same for all STOCK ECU's of fuel injected R1's and R6's of ANY year. The other graph is for the R6 RACE ECU only, even the *R1* RACE ECU uses a different strategy.

Wanna prove this...set C3 and C4 both to minus 128 (the maximum) and see how your bike idles. If the idle doesn't change then you're right about it cooresponding only to higher RPM's but if your idle falls into oblivion.... then you've lost two cylinders buy tuning them out INDIVIDUALLY.

...I know how this experiment turns out, but please try it for yourself - it's temporary and won't harm a thing but it will empower you with first hand knowledge
.

Quote :
The Yamaha literature that I mention is THE SERVICE MANUAL...and the info that Yamaha Technical faxed to me...I'll see about scanning and posting that but it dsoesn't say much else.

If you are bumping up one or two 'clicks' DON'T BOTHER! If you had read my previous posts you would know that I tested this on a 4 gas analyzer and each 'click' equals EXACTLY .0666% of a change in CO level. So if your bike is at 3.2% CO and you bump it 3 clicks it will be at 3.4% CO and you can't feel or hear that difference in change...nobody can, so if you think your bike runs better IT's ALL IN YOUR HEAD. You'd have to change .5%CO at least yo start to feel a difference.

Since none of you are using a gas analyzer (that I've heard from) stop messing around with shit you can't see. Unless you know where your bike starts out you don't know where you are going or what you are doing.

The California 2004 R1's that I've tested are around 3.2-3.5 % CO which is pretty good but could all stand to be bumped about 20 clicks on each cylinder to get them in the 4.5-5% range - then you *might* notice a difference.

Quote :
Actually Sook, the changes that people are doing to their stock ECU through the buttons will NOT change blocks in different RPM ranges...it ONLY adjusts the baseline CO levels at idle for each cylinder...quite a few people have ignored my earlier posting about that.

Also, all of these folks that are trying to 'bump it' up by 2-3 clicks are not doing anything significant since each increment is such a small change in CO % and they're not using a gas analyzer to monitor/quantify their results.

Search for my earlier posts to get a full, comprehensive and scientific run down on what it does and by how much - including time spent with an 04 R1 on a 4-gas analyzer with headers modified with titanium ports for reading individual cylinder trim!

And finally some V Twin Info

http://www.linerwiki.com/index.php?title=CO-Mod

Quote :
The intent of this mod is to permit a proper adjustment in the idle fuel/air ratio, and perhaps a bit beyond, and not violate any emission regulations. This adjustment may allow for a proper idling engine at a variety of altitudes, and may reduce the "popping" experienced by some through slight idle mixture enrichment when the throttle is closed on deceleration

Then again, I can't argue with "it rips." bert
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Jäger
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PostSubject: Re: WR250 R/X built in Programmer   Tue Feb 15, 2011 12:28 am

mordicai wrote:
Wow, what a trip. Jager's telling me what he thinks might be the case but he really doesn't know anything about it because he's never done it. Jeez guys. May be at some time someone on this forum who has actually done this will come on and enlighten us.
No, what I'm doing mordicai is telling you we had a long, long thread on this already, and if anyone is interested in doing this mod (i.e. somebody like you, not somebody like me), they should simply just do a quick search, find the thread, and then read what was discussed and discovered then, instead of starting again from scratch.

So to prevent any further windging around on this, I did the quick search for you that you didn't want to do. It took about all of one minute. Here you go - five full pages. All kinds of info - including much from a lot of people who have done it (which is what you wanted to hear about, correct?). Enjoy:

http://wr250rforum.forumotion.com/t1141-wr-taco-in-diagnostic-mode

Hmmmm... Turns out my memory on what was discussed was pretty good...
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mordicai




PostSubject: Re: WR250 R/X built in Programmer   Tue Feb 15, 2011 12:38 am

Thanks Jager. I'll read it. I did do a search on ADV and found some stuff but not this. Anyway WRXer has convinced me to get a pc with the Yosh so thats the way I'll go. I'm a bit of an ass and a hothead sometimes and I apologize for that.....PTSD.
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WRRSam

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PostSubject: Re: WR250 R/X built in Programmer   Tue Feb 15, 2011 4:54 am

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motoman250f




PostSubject: Re: WR250 R/X built in Programmer   Thu Feb 17, 2011 5:18 pm

I have a pc3 with a few maps that I've looked at. the fuel adjustments at different throttle positions and rpms is as varied as you can imagine. to just up a single area or the whole thing without the control to adjust another area is not that useful IMHO
I've had the yoshi /pc3 for a few years and its a good combo,, just not cheap.
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Justlookin




PostSubject: Re: WR250 R/X built in Programmer   Thu Feb 24, 2011 9:21 pm

I am in Ohio and tried this mod last week. My WRR is a 2010 and has most mods. It has a PC5 and autotune. When I initally set up the PC5 it was recommended to leave the idle circuit alone and allow the stock fuel controller to handle idle. My stock co setting was 0 and with the autotune o2 sensor showed a AFR approx 14.5:1. Before I found out about this mod I knew my idle was on the lean side and the engine bogged with the throttle snapped. I tried several settings and settled on 10 showing a AFR approx 12.8:1 AFR. The bike handles the snapped throttle better but still is not as crisp as my CRF250X. I have not gotten to ride it much since we only had a short reprieve from winter, but have noticed it starts even easier and this seems to have cleaned up the slow speed manors. The PC instruction show a function that acts like a accelerator pump on a carb so I will play with that next and see if I can get any more improvement.

I really think this mod has its place and works well with a controller.

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rydnseek

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PostSubject: Re: WR250 R/X built in Programmer   Sun Feb 27, 2011 10:26 am

I changed my pipe out fairly soon after getting my wr. I also researched the co settings & tried different ones. I could tell no difference in how it ran, though a real dyno might have noticed a minor difference. But others said the programmer was still necessary, so i broke down & bought one. I honestly can't tell any difference with it. If i were doing it over, i'd get a pipe & just boost the co setting & ride. I could notice a difference when i put on the pipe.. definitely more pep.. but most other mods yield so little it is not detectable by the butt dyno. I'm sure they add up, & are worth doing. It depends more on your mental state. If you're anal & want 'the best' then get all the doo dads you can & have fun with them. If you just want to ride, you can skip the programmer, imo, & put the money into other mods.
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mordicai




PostSubject: Re: WR250 R/X built in Programmer   Sun Feb 27, 2011 10:54 am

Thanks Rydnseek.
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motoman250f




PostSubject: Re: WR250 R/X built in Programmer   Sun Feb 27, 2011 1:59 pm

I have to admit most of the rest of us are using a map from another bike on the pc3 or copied settings from someone else on the fmf. So its butt dyno as the standard anyway. A few are using those programmers and a dyno to tune them,, so I suppose if your going to just butt dyno anyway might as well try the stock adjustment first,, IMHO

However,, After 9k miles of running mine with the pc3 "open airbox" map. (mods were open airbox and yoshi pipe) I had my piston apart to do the 290 kit. I noticed a lot of black and carbon on the piston. Which means there's a rich condition somewhere. thats what we risk with all our butt dyno thinking. At that rate I could have had preignition in another 30k or something tough
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crazy_dave

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PostSubject: Re: WR250 R/X built in Programmer   Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:14 am

I know the threads old but..................

So is changing the CO mode in a stock bike worth looking into?

Also instead of using a jumper wire on the harness connector you just splice into the lone black wire and run the splice to the negative on the battery. That way you can access the CO at any time.
Is that correct?
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aizatnorman




PostSubject: Re: WR250 R/X built in Programmer   Sun Sep 09, 2012 4:54 am

rydnseek wrote:
I changed my pipe out fairly soon after getting my wr. I also researched the co settings & tried different ones. I could tell no difference in how it ran, though a real dyno might have noticed a minor difference. But others said the programmer was still necessary, so i broke down & bought one. I honestly can't tell any difference with it. If i were doing it over, i'd get a pipe & just boost the co setting & ride. I could notice a difference when i put on the pipe.. definitely more pep.. but most other mods yield so little it is not detectable by the butt dyno. I'm sure they add up, & are worth doing. It depends more on your mental state. If you're anal & want 'the best' then get all the doo dads you can & have fun with them. If you just want to ride, you can skip the programmer, imo, & put the money into other mods.

so adjusting the CO by "feel" we will still gain some hp with the use of a stock pipe or an after market pipe, but if we wanna go for full potential, we should really look into a programmer especially when we have done airbox mods and a full system exhaust? am i right?
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