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 Throttle On Off at idle

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duanew




PostSubject: Throttle On Off at idle   Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:39 pm

I think that this deserved a new thread so I started one. I also posted this on the ADV Mega Thread.

Ok Guys. I have a service bulletin for the one shortcoming of the WR250R that I can see. I absolutely hated the on off throttle characteristics off idle for my bike. I would look like a total idiot when trying to turn around in the cul-de-sac without using the clutch or coasting. It would go from engine braking to approximately what felt like to me was 20% throttle. One second it was like I was going to fall over the bars and the next I was going to pop a wheelie. This was all while leaned over. I have a FMF fuel programmer and have done the CO mode mod and neither really helped with this problem.

The other problem is that some people say that they have no problem with the on off throttle. I knew that there had to be a reason. Some say that it is just the characteristic of fuel injected motorcycles. I have a 2003 Kawasaki Z1000 and it does not surge off idle and it has about four times the horsepower.

I have searched and found this suggested before that it could be the throttle position sensor (TPS) but no one had tried to do anything. I then looked in the service manual and it stated a procedure for adjusting the TPS. I had the thought to check if it was in spec.

I have a few notes about the spec shown on page 7-7 of the service manual. It shows that you should tap between the Blue and Black/Blue wires. I believe that this is wrong as you should always get the full 5V potential across both sides of the potentiometer. I confirmed this with my measurements. It also shows on 8-79 of the manual about checking the TPS using the Yellow wire instead of the Blue wire. Just to be clear you should check the voltage between the Yellow and Black/Blue wires on your TPS to check if it is in spec.

The TPS is on the right side or the throttle body right behind the frame rail. I am sorry but I did not take pictures of my dirty bike. I checked mine and got a reading of about .6V. This is outside the spec of .63V to .73V at idle. I used a multimeter that has pointed tips to poke through the insulation. I plan to use liquid electrical tape later to clean it up. Now is the hard part: adjusting the hard to reach thing. Yes it is right behind the frame rail any you cannot get to the fasteners. They are also security torx of size T-25. Luckily I had a set of security torx bits already. The problem still remains that they will not fit in the space provided. I had to remove the seat and side panels and get the fuel tank out of the way. I was able to loosen the throttle body clamps and wiggle it up out of the bottom hose and to the side. This gave me enough room to slide the bit in there and turn the bit with a ¼ inch wrench. I adjusted it to .723 volts at idle throttle (I had the engine off). I put everything back and took it for a test ride.

The test ride went great. I can now do near full lock turns with out the clutch and without looking like a noob. I am hoping that it will help with my propensity to let the engine die on too low of throttle levels while on the trail and going slow in the tight stuff. I am so glad that I found this. You need a pretty good voltmeter to complete this task. It should be able to measure to .01V.

Hey wait a minute. Is this a TPS report?
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BoredAzHell20




PostSubject: Re: Throttle On Off at idle   Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:06 pm

Cool information. I'm glad you were able to smooth it out.


but in all honestly all the bikes I've own (97 gsxr, 96 zx7r, 02 r6, and 07 r6) felt the same as my wr250x in regards to first gear jerkyness. Plus I like a snappy throttle; pulls up revs fast kind of like a car with a light flywheel. Also, maybe I am one of the lucky few that doesn't have this issue on my wr250x.

I always thought it was the rule of thumb when riding a motorcycle riding that you always feather the clutch when riding around with 1st gear.



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duanew




PostSubject: Re: Throttle On Off at idle   Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:33 pm

I had a 01 Super Sherpa and that thing was buttery smooth off idle. It made it really easy to ride around at low throttle levels. The WR250R on the other hand before the adjustment was downright difficult to be smooth at low speeds.
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mordicai




PostSubject: Re: Throttle On Off at idle   Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:35 pm

Great find Duanew, The the first to figure it out and do something. What do you think the chance is of getting Yamaha to put my sensor in spec on warrenty? Probably best to do it myself. Thanks for the info
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duanew




PostSubject: Re: Throttle On Off at idle   Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:53 pm

Truth be told that I do not know exactly how far mine was off from factory. I did not realize it until too late that the first multimeter that I tried would only read to .1V so I needed to find my better one with more precision. All I knew is that I wanted to reset it to the upper end of the range.
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0007onWR




PostSubject: Re: Throttle On Off at idle   Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:16 pm

Can you go into diag mode and tell us what angle it reads
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greer




PostSubject: Re: Throttle On Off at idle   Tue Sep 20, 2011 5:53 am

Glory be! OK folks, I need a step-by-step with pictures, please! Actually, I probably need a mechanic. Can't wait to hear more, all the same. Thanks so much, duanew.

Sarah
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duanew




PostSubject: Re: Throttle On Off at idle   Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:59 am

0007onWR wrote:
Can you go into diag mode and tell us what angle it reads

The only thing that I have done in the diag mode is change the CO setting. Do you have a link to the procedure to check.

Edit:

Ok I found it. It is in the electrical - fuel injection section of the service manual. Mine is 18 idle, 98 full throttle.

The specs for the throttle in the service manual are 15-19 idle and 95-100 full throttle.


Last edited by duanew on Wed Sep 21, 2011 11:46 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : I added the service manual specs.)
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treybrad




PostSubject: Re: Throttle On Off at idle   Wed Sep 21, 2011 10:51 am

Going to look at this tonight -- thanks for digging a little deeper for a solution duanew!

I had an SV650 that had a very similar on/off 'lunge'. It's a common problem on the SV that the TPS is out of whack -- and it's the same fix -- just rotate the TPS to the correct position. It was night and day after adjusting it, no more feathering the throttle all the time in 1st in parking lots. Hopefully the WRR will respond as well.

I've fiddled with the CO settings, but it doesn't seem to make much difference in the on/off transition. The other oddity on mine that I think could be related is a tendency to stumble when not fully warmed up, and quick 'blips' of the throttle downshifting sometimes don't rev up like they should. Mine is all stock, hopefully this will help.

The jerky on/off definitely isn't a trait of FI bikes. My Bandit 1250 is very smooth, and the SV was too after adjusting the TPS.

trey
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Elessar




PostSubject: Good on you duanew   Wed Sep 21, 2011 11:51 am

I think this is pretty good. I don't pretend to be a mechanic but I can tell you that my Vstrom suffers from the same issue and I have posted this over on the StromTroopers forum where smarter people than me will review it and hopefully make comments. I have been a fan of the the Throttle Tamer device from G2, although I have not installed one, but this may be a more direct/permanent fix. I'll be anxious to see what others have to say.
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greer




PostSubject: Re: Throttle On Off at idle   Wed Sep 21, 2011 12:36 pm

Mine is showing 16-96.

Sarah
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treybrad




PostSubject: Re: Throttle On Off at idle   Wed Sep 21, 2011 12:41 pm

Elessar wrote:
I think this is pretty good. I don't pretend to be a mechanic but I can tell you that my Vstrom suffers from the same issue and I have posted this over on the StromTroopers forum where smarter people than me will review it and hopefully make comments. I have been a fan of the the Throttle Tamer device from G2, although I have not installed one, but this may be a more direct/permanent fix. I'll be anxious to see what others have to say.

You might want to check this out: http://forums.sv650.org/showthread.php?t=55459

I would imagine the procedure for a Vstrom would be very similar.

[/hijack]

trey
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greer




PostSubject: Re: Throttle On Off at idle   Wed Sep 21, 2011 1:59 pm

OK, seat, side panels, tank off. I'm looking for something on the right (throttle side) of the bike, just behind the frame rail? Mercy, that engine is crammed in tight.

Sarah
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greer




PostSubject: Re: Throttle On Off at idle   Wed Sep 21, 2011 2:18 pm

Cut&paste from HighFive (Thanks HF!) on Advrider back '09:

Here is the procedure to get your R² Display to show "Diagnostic Mode".

With the key off, hold down the Select 1 button + Reset button simultaneously. Then, turn on the key and continue holding down these buttons until the Diagnostic Mode is indicated in the display.....as "diag". When you see that, release the buttons.

To move the "diag" to the TPS (Throttle Position Sensor), simply push those same two buttons again and hold them down until the display changes, then release.

You should now be looking at the TPS reading. Twist your throttle and see if the numbers change. Go to full throttle position and check the reading. Most stock bikes are set at about 95%....which is probably just fine.

If you want to change the TPS setting, you need to locate the TPS sensor itself. A small black unit under the tank/seat connection on the right hand side of the engine. Its kind of in front of the airbox, above the fuel injector unit.

If you want to increase the TPS setting at full throttle, you simply need to rotate the sensor counterclockwise just a little bit. You can do that by tapping on the top-right corner with a smooth round tool (flat punch, etc). Just a little bit of movement gets the job done. BE VERY CAREFUL not to damage the unit. Its very sensitive item. Do NOT go to 100% as that can cause a stuck throttle at Wide Open.

I've done this adjustment. Mine is set at 98%. Personally, I cannot tell a difference in how the bike runs from this adjustment alone. Maybe a little bit more top-end. But I don't really plan to run around above 100mph indicated, very often. For the record, my fastest run to date is 102 indicated (92 mph on the gps). And that was with Full Loaded Gear on the Winter Dualsport Ride From Hell #2 (recently). Does make me wonder what she'll do without the extra load and drag.....

When you're all done playing with the TPS &/or "diag" mode, just turn your key off and that will reset your display back to normal.

HF


Excuse me while I run back out to stare at my engine again....

Sarah

Edit: More here:

http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=726249&highlight=throttle+position+sensor
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treybrad




PostSubject: Re: Throttle On Off at idle   Wed Sep 21, 2011 2:31 pm

Hmm, I'm at 16-97 which is right in spec. I'll break out the multimeter soon and check voltages at those wires.

trey
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greer




PostSubject: Re: Throttle On Off at idle   Wed Sep 21, 2011 8:27 pm

Found it, got my punch and hammer and pecked until I got a reading of 18-97. Now could just be the placebo efffect and all that, but I think it helped. Seems to me it allows a smoother take off, chugs better with a bit of throttle at low speeds and provides a less lurchy shift between 1st and 2nd. It also seems to have a better throttle response coming out of low speed turns. I may be crazy, but that's what I was thinking after about a 25 miles test ride today. I'd have tested more but I ran out of time.

Sarah
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mordicai




PostSubject: Re: Throttle On Off at idle   Wed Sep 21, 2011 8:35 pm

Thanks Greer, I'll follow your lead and give it a shot.
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greer




PostSubject: Re: Throttle On Off at idle   Sat Sep 24, 2011 9:17 pm

I've ridden 175 or so miles over the last couple days; definitely, definitely better. Feels so much more like any other bike now. Thanks again, duanew!

Sarah
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duanew




PostSubject: Re: Throttle On Off at idle   Sun Sep 25, 2011 10:15 pm

greer wrote:
I've ridden 175 or so miles over the last couple days; definitely, definitely better. Feels so much more like any other bike now. Thanks again, duanew!

Sarah

You are welcome! cheers

I am glad it has worked out for you and me as well. I am amazed how this little adjustment can make it feel alot different. Now I need to go out and put some more miles on mine and enjoy the smoothness.
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YamX1KRR




PostSubject: Re: Throttle On Off at idle   Tue Sep 27, 2011 5:41 pm

This is some good stuff right here, I'll have to fool with it when I get the chance, AND RIDE THE DANG THING. Thank you guys for all the good info.
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