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 Airbox mods vs water

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FreckledAvenger
SheWolf
skierd
gatorfan
sturgeon
motokid
zinx
11 posters
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zinx

zinx



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PostSubject: Airbox mods vs water   Airbox mods vs water EmptySun Jan 29, 2012 4:32 pm

I couldn't quite find where this post was going to go, so I thought it should be here since it has to do with modified air boxes. IN my search for power I have read pretty much all threads concerning the airbox/flapper/door/etc mods (I could also say I've pretty much read all threads... period) and have seen a couple of times mention of possible "water in engine" and how we need to really avoid that. Now I understand that water in an engine isn't good, but since I'm new to the moto world I was wondering how mad it is. Here are few points to start the discussion:

-what can happen when/if water gets sucked in?
-what usually happens when/if water gets sucked in?
-difference between a carbonated engine and FI engine when/if water gets sucked in?
-been there done that stories? advice?

I,M not looking to drown my wrt250r but just so I know how bad I can hurt it when playing near water. The main reason why I'm confused about this is that my friend (who just bought a wr250r to mod and ride with me) had a KTM 250 and dropped it in a river while it was running. Pulled it out, cranked it many times to get the water through and kept on going. That was that. So as I was reading I noticed, SheWolf in particular, mentioning you need to watch out for water in the engine and it left me with a big question mark. Did my buddy just get lucky or is it a "not so bad" type situation?

Thanks
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motokid
Moderator
motokid



Airbox mods vs water Empty
PostSubject: Re: Airbox mods vs water   Airbox mods vs water EmptySun Jan 29, 2012 4:36 pm

Water in your engine can destroy it.

Don't let it happen.

Period.



_________________
2008 WR250X
Gearing: 13t - 48t
Power Commander 5 / PC-V
Airbox Door Removed - Flapper glued - AIS removed
FmF Q4
Bridgestone Battlax BT-003rs
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sturgeon

sturgeon



Airbox mods vs water Empty
PostSubject: Re: Airbox mods vs water   Airbox mods vs water EmptySun Jan 29, 2012 4:42 pm

Water doesn't compress much, so if you manage to drown it enough to get water in the cylinder(s), AND it stays running with water in it, even briefly, it'll break in all sorts of ugly ways.
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Guest
Guest




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PostSubject: Re: Airbox mods vs water   Airbox mods vs water EmptySun Jan 29, 2012 5:05 pm

In my experience, when a bike gets completely swamped in a water crossing, you will ultimately push it home (or get towed if you're lucky). poser2 Two strokes are a bit easier, but a 4 stroke will require some major work before you should consider trying to start it again....especially a fuel injected 4 stroke.



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gatorfan

gatorfan



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PostSubject: Re: Airbox mods vs water   Airbox mods vs water EmptySun Jan 29, 2012 7:27 pm

If you suspect water may have gotten in the engine what is your next step?

Is there any way to know for sure if water got in there?

Should you NOT try and start the bike?

This would be good to know as my bike is part submarine.
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motokid
Moderator
motokid



Airbox mods vs water Empty
PostSubject: Re: Airbox mods vs water   Airbox mods vs water EmptySun Jan 29, 2012 8:05 pm

gatorfan wrote:
If you suspect water may have gotten in the engine what is your next step?

Is there any way to know for sure if water got in there?

Should you NOT try and start the bike?

This would be good to know as my bike is part submarine.

Never try to start bike if water is suspected of being sucked in.

Water does not compress. Bad things happen.

Connecting rods and valves bend. Water gets in oil. That goes places it shouldn't.

Drain oil immediately. Look for signs of water.

Remove spark plug and turn engine over by hand to make sure water is not in cylinder. This is where the kick start feature on dirt bikes is very valuable.

That's where you start,.....

_________________
2008 WR250X
Gearing: 13t - 48t
Power Commander 5 / PC-V
Airbox Door Removed - Flapper glued - AIS removed
FmF Q4
Bridgestone Battlax BT-003rs
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skierd





Airbox mods vs water Empty
PostSubject: Re: Airbox mods vs water   Airbox mods vs water EmptySun Jan 29, 2012 8:30 pm

Skierd to cross? from shane kelley on Vimeo.



To be fair, this simple looking crossing claimed 3 of us that day. There was a big hole right where, um, I fell over lol. Front wheel just dropped down and I lost all momentum, thankfully hit the kill switch as I was tipping over so the motor was off when she went under.

When you dunk the bike, the best thing to do is what you saw me doing. Off comes the shrouds and tank. Open the airbox door and drain all the water out, mine was full to the brim. If you've got friends, tilt the bike up on its rear to get the water out of the exhaust. Pull the spark plug and crank her over. Don't be looking down into the plug hole like I was. budah Very happy Make sure all the water is out before you even think about starting the motor again.

If you are lucky, you'll get it all out and it fired back up and be able to limp back to someplace where you can change the oil. Better yet, call a friend with a trailer like I did and get a ride back to your house or base camp and do it there. Drain the oil/water mixture thats now inhabiting the crankcase and change the oil filter. Fill with clean oil, run it for 30sec to a minute to make sure it circulates through, change the oil again. Run it for a couple minutes, change the oil again. Run it for a couple more minutes and see if its still showing water. It probably won't be at this point, so change the oil one last time and ride it for a few hundred miles or so, long enough for the clean oil to get into everything and everywhere and fully flush the last straggling bits of water and grit that made it into the motor and change it again. Thank dunking was a solid 20-25k miles ago and my motor still runs great!

There was nothing terribly fancy that had to be done to get the bike started again, just make sure the spark plug is dry and ALL of the water is out. Once I had a dry plug she started and ran like always.
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gatorfan

gatorfan



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PostSubject: Re: Airbox mods vs water   Airbox mods vs water EmptySun Jan 29, 2012 9:17 pm

Moto ... Skierd: Thanks much (again).
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Guest
Guest




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PostSubject: Re: Airbox mods vs water   Airbox mods vs water EmptySun Jan 29, 2012 10:01 pm

Yep. I've seen it take 8-10 oil changes before things are finally cleared up. Just use a really cheap oil... you won't really be riding the bike, just running it a few minutes at a time to flush the engine out.
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zinx

zinx



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PostSubject: Re: Airbox mods vs water   Airbox mods vs water EmptyMon Jan 30, 2012 12:15 am

Thanks for all the replies.

@skierd: that must of sucked! But thanks for sharing. I'll keep that in mind if I ever dunk it.

I still don't get why my friend made it out all right with his ktm250... Mind you he did sell it not long after that because the compression was shot and he was having a hard time starting it. That could explain things... But he did ride it for a while before selling.

ok so we've got the "dunking" portion covered (it's a big no-no). What about spray and puddles and whatnot. How far does that stuff get? I've gutted the airbox and am going to take the door off. I will be adding some sort of rubber or foam lining to protect the door opening from any kind of spray, try to make it somewhat sealed between the side panel and the door opening.

Thoughts? Comments?
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skierd





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PostSubject: Re: Airbox mods vs water   Airbox mods vs water EmptyMon Jan 30, 2012 12:38 am

Not really, it was hot that day and I needed to cool off anyways lol. Plus I got a ride home from a buddy (extra nice since I rode out to the came, about 120 miles).

It really needs to get dunked to get water ingested if your airbox is solid and the cap at the bottom is on tight so its sealed well from the factory. Mine was full to the brim and not leaking a drop with the airbox door shut. What do you mean by gutted? Just removed the flapper door at the top? Cut holes into it?

I wouldn't cut up the airbox except to completely remove the flapper assembly (see here for what I've done based on this bike's experience: http://www.wrrdualsport.com/tech-guide/air-intake/77-airboxmod

Assuming you remove everything and just have an open air filter, try to protect it from the spray from the rear tire i.e. leave the fender liner in place. Minor mist and road spray will be handled by the oil on the filter mostly, and some humidity or mist isn't going to kill the motor. A full on dunking or a direct spray at the filter is really what we're trying to avoid. I've gone through some fairly deep water and so long as it doesn't go over the base of the seat (which is also the level of the OE airbox opening) you should be fine. I've ridden in rain so bad I could barely see and never had a issue.
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motokid
Moderator
motokid



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PostSubject: Re: Airbox mods vs water   Airbox mods vs water EmptyMon Jan 30, 2012 6:50 am

zinx wrote:


I still don't get why my friend made it out all right with his ktm250... Mind you he did sell it not long after that because the compression was shot and he was having a hard time starting it. That could explain things... But he did ride it for a while before selling.


Everything depends on how quickly the bike is shut off. Kill the motor quickly and less damage is likely to happen. Also, if your friends KTM has a kick start it's easier for him to purge any water from cylinder. Not to mention being at least 100 pounds lighter it'd be easier to man-handle to empty water from every orifice.


zinx wrote:


ok so we've got the "dunking" portion covered (it's a big no-no). What about spray and puddles and whatnot. How far does that stuff get? I've gutted the airbox and am going to take the door off. I will be adding some sort of rubber or foam lining to protect the door opening from any kind of spray, try to make it somewhat sealed between the side panel and the door opening.

Thoughts? Comments?

I've been caught in some decent downpours. I have no airbox door. So far I've not had issues with water in airbox. I would not want to ride for hours that way, but a 20 to 30 minute ride in steady rain with road spray and puddles did not lead to water in my airbox. That was the first thing I checked when I got home.

If I lived in Seattle I'd keep the airbox door on, drill it out, and stuff the sucker with uni-vents.

I typically don't ride in the rain. Certainly not on purpose.

A lot depends on what your plans are with the bike.


_________________
2008 WR250X
Gearing: 13t - 48t
Power Commander 5 / PC-V
Airbox Door Removed - Flapper glued - AIS removed
FmF Q4
Bridgestone Battlax BT-003rs
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SheWolf
Alpha Rider
SheWolf



Airbox mods vs water Empty
PostSubject: Re: Airbox mods vs water   Airbox mods vs water EmptyMon Jan 30, 2012 11:41 am

zinx wrote:
What about spray and puddles and whatnot. How far does that stuff get? I've gutted the airbox and am going to take the door off. I will be adding some sort of rubber or foam lining to protect the door opening from any kind of spray, try to make it somewhat sealed between the side panel and the door opening.

Thoughts? Comments?

Well...if you ride like me, that stuff will get into places you never dreamed of. I've had mine sopping wet, to the point when I took off the seat and side panels, water was still running out from underneath. Granted, I don't have the door taken off the airbox, because I personally think it's a stupid idea if anyone takes it offroad around anything wet (before I modded the airbox, I had water in it after playing around puddles and stuff; it came in through the top where the flapper is). Rolling Eyes Water will get into the airbox with the door off, especially if you are flying thru puddles and playing around marshy boggy areas. I've got flo-rite material covering any openings on the top of the airbox which spares water getting into the airbox, and it works very well. Then again, I ride an R, not an X.

_________________
A wolf's voice echoed down the mountain 'Share the bounty of the hunt with your brothers and sisters, and forever be strong and free.' Airbox mods vs water Wolf_b10
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FreckledAvenger





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PostSubject: Re: Airbox mods vs water   Airbox mods vs water EmptyMon Jan 30, 2012 6:32 pm

skierd wrote:

When you dunk the bike, the best thing to do is what you saw me doing. Off comes the shrouds and tank. Open the airbox door and drain all the water out, mine was full to the brim. If you've got friends, tilt the bike up on its rear to get the water out of the exhaust. Pull the spark plug and crank her over. Don't be looking down into the plug hole like I was. budah Very happy Make sure all the water is out before you even think about starting the motor again.

When I dunked mine I also found that tipping the bike up on the back wheel did not get all the water out. It seemed to me that the (stock) exhaust prevents the all the water from draining out once it gets that far in. When I pulled the spark plug no amount of cranking that bike over would eject all the water. I would stop for a few seconds once all the water seemed to have gone and then start cranking it again to find a fresh batch being shot up in the air. The header pipe had heaps of water in it once it was removed and if I ever do it again I will remove it first before bothering to crank it over to get water out of the cylinder.

That said, four oil changes later (two immediately after warming up the engine, another after riding it for a few kms and the last after about 50kms) the bike was fine. You could see heaps of water in the first change (wispy white colour) and a small bit in the second but the third and fourth seemed normal - never the less I felt it was best to be safe than sorry ...

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foofighter

foofighter



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PostSubject: Re: Airbox mods vs water   Airbox mods vs water EmptyMon Jan 30, 2012 10:15 pm

I'm sure this was a bad thing to do but this past summer I was riding with a buddy who was on a KLR650. We did a water crossing and he went down right in the deepest part... The bike sucked up a bunch of water before it stalled out. We ended up taking out the spark plug, turning off the fuel, and then cranked the starter. The water all shot out of the spark plug hole, we put everything back together, started the bike, and rode home 100km...

To my knowledge the bike still runs perfect. Maybe because it was a KLR? Haha
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mucker

mucker



Airbox mods vs water Empty
PostSubject: Re: Airbox mods vs water   Airbox mods vs water EmptyMon Jan 30, 2012 11:14 pm

Though I don't claim to know gas engines. They are a compressor, and I do know about compressors, professionally.
A compressor is only designed to pump vapor...as pointed out, liquid will not compress.
Now just because liquid will never compress, does not mean that you cannot feed liquid to a compressor (a reciprocating compressor in this case.)
Theoretically, if on the top of the stroke of piston, or before...the cavity is filled with pure liquid, hydrolock will occur...game over, for a compressor.
Meaning, if there is any vapor present, it will compress like a spring, even if the rest of the space is "solid" with liquid.
So can have mostly, a column of liquid, as long as some vapour is present, that sample will compress.

Like in brake lines...a solid column of liquid feels stiff...air in the lines feels springy.

In an engine like mine...my main concern is feeding it a solid column of liquid.The factory snorkel sheds water, while also, aerating it, if and when it comes.
Nobody, intentionally puts straight water in their engine...but when it does come, I want it to be as diffused and aerated as possible.
Cause when it is solid, it will never compress, usually meaning, something had to give...the weakest link, in my compressor.

Though there are many issues with trying to pump liquid, hydro lock is when machine meets nature, and usually loses.

If it aint a solid column of liquid, then you got it good...as its gonna get.

A compressor does not move liquid...that would be a pump..a different design altogether.
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Just Bob

Just Bob



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PostSubject: Re: Airbox mods vs water   Airbox mods vs water EmptyTue Jan 31, 2012 1:01 am

mucker wrote:


Though there are many issues with trying to pump liquid, hydro lock is when machine meets nature, and usually loses.


Reminded me of what happens when race boats come apart at high revs. Kablooie!
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zinx

zinx



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PostSubject: Re: Airbox mods vs water   Airbox mods vs water EmptyTue Jan 31, 2012 11:04 am

Great, that'S a l;ot of info! Thanks to all for this educational thread. I'll be constructing a water shedding airbox that allows maximum flow of air while protecting the filter from direct spray. Hopefully it will avoid the engine from swallowing a damageable amount of water. I'm not worried about a little water, but in my search for power, the airbox door is in the way and I must find a way to protect that filter. I have a few ideas... I'll report back with photos once I've got my two hands in it.

cheers
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Just Bob

Just Bob



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PostSubject: Re: Airbox mods vs water   Airbox mods vs water EmptyTue Jan 31, 2012 12:09 pm

Zinx - Attach a compressed O2 bottle with a water immersion activated relay to switch from atmospheric to closed intake configuration. Don't forget to wear scuba gear and post GoPro video of riding totally submerged. Watch out for Piranhas and observe Navy diving tables to prevent the bends. Good luck! Very happy
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blaisew





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PostSubject: Re: Airbox mods vs water   Airbox mods vs water EmptyThu Feb 09, 2012 5:34 pm

I had a little water issue on the TAT last summer when I laid the bike over climbing out of a stream. Only the exhaust went below the water, but when I pulled the bike upright, the water ran into the exhaust can. I didn't know this. The bike wouldn't start, but turned freely, then less freely. Eventually we figured that there had to be water in there and pulled the tank to get the plug out. The water wouldn't stop coming so 1+1 means water in the can and header. Pulled the head pipe and was able to evacuate the cylinder and get going again. I changed the oil at the next town, probably 60 miles away, and saw no water in the oil. Have changed it again too, and no issues. No ill effects at all from this little goof. Just remember if your exhaust pipe is under water, you'll get some into the engine. Pull the head pipe right away and empty it, before trying to start the engine.
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zinx

zinx



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PostSubject: Re: Airbox mods vs water   Airbox mods vs water EmptySat Feb 11, 2012 11:57 pm

blaisew wrote:
I had a little water issue on the TAT last summer when I laid the bike over climbing out of a stream. Only the exhaust went below the water, but when I pulled the bike upright, the water ran into the exhaust can. I didn't know this. The bike wouldn't start, but turned freely, then less freely. Eventually we figured that there had to be water in there and pulled the tank to get the plug out. The water wouldn't stop coming so 1+1 means water in the can and header. Pulled the head pipe and was able to evacuate the cylinder and get going again. I changed the oil at the next town, probably 60 miles away, and saw no water in the oil. Have changed it again too, and no issues. No ill effects at all from this little goof. Just remember if your exhaust pipe is under water, you'll get some into the engine. Pull the head pipe right away and empty it, before trying to start the engine.

got it, thanks!
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