Self Defense - "Intent"

edit; futile text removed

I've carried firearms for a living most of the last 35+ years, first as a cop and now in the military. I've been on the two way range, I have held concealed carry permits from various states for about 20+ years, and I'm lucky enough that I live in a state where I can open carry pretty much anywhere I want rather than concealed if the mood strikes me - and it often does.

I have never heard the term "shoot to kill" at work, much less in any third party firearms course I was sent on i.e. the Smith & Wesson academy. As far as I can tell, the "shoot to kill" thing may be a relic from the early part of the 20th century policing, but mostly it seems to be one of those Hollywood-isms that gets perpetuated among the populace that never lives in that environment (like the movie heroes who shoot benchrest size groups with a submachine gun while diving sideways through the air). And while I have heard a few people yap about "shoot to kill" and similar other comments before, it is truly instructive how all that disappears once they're actually carrying a firearm AND the responsibility that goes with that. Funny how sobering reality is!

This is somewhat related to the "carry handloads and you'll get your ass sued off" train of thought. I spent several days with Mitch Vilos while doing a presentation to Utah politicians and talked with him about these concepts at length. Vilos is a well known lawyer specializing in self defense cases, and in particular laws dealing with concealed carry and self defense. He pointed out that any half assed prosecutor could indict a bagel if he wanted to. And that if somebody wants to sue you, there's not much you can do to prevent that happening either. He followed that up by pointing out that while the prosecutor/plaintiff's lawyer can try and make just about anything put you in a bad light, if you have a half competent lawyer, they can just as quickly turn that back around.

Which is not to say you should run around saying things like that (and why would an adult say that in the first place?), wearing "make my day" type T-shirts, etc. Why make things difficult for yourself?

What Vilos says is that the situation and sequence of actions you took relevant to the laws in the jurisdiction you are in will ultimately define the outcome in the vast majority of cases.

I think the rational approach is:

1. Act as though everything you do and say will be watched by a jury sometime later. It may even happen.
   
   
2. A firearm kept/carried for self defense is a "last option emergency use tool", not an object for expressing a political view or for making a point. Just like it is for cops.
   
   
3. Use your head and avoid knowingly putting yourself in a position where you are pushed into using a firearm in the first place. Firearms are not for winning an argument or dick measuring contest. On the other hand, I refuse to concede my right to go wherever I wish to in public spaces as a free man because nasty people happen to like those particular places. That is philosophical as much as anything else - I refuse to surrender my rights and public places to bad guys as though they own them. In Montana, this is indeed philosophical as I can't think of anywhere near here that has what would be considered "bad guy turf".
   
   
4. Know the law very well relating to carrying for self defense and using a firearm for self defense. Cops are taught and have to behave within their legal guidelines and restraints, and you are no different nor have any less of a legal duty.
   
   
5. Even if your jurisdiction or mode of use doesn't require it, take a concealed carry or similar firearms self defense course from a state certified instructor. Don't go by your own interpretation of what the law does and doesn't mean.
   
   
6. Relevant to the above, remember that just like police, if you hold a CCW permit the law holds you to a higher standard. And you just KNOW the media sure as hell will.
   
   
7. Retreat from a developing situation if possible without endangering yourself, even if the law says you don't have to. Whatever else, you look the better for it in the aftermath. This does not mean I will not fight to prevent theft of my property, however.
   
   
8. Dial 911 if you have the time and stay on the line.
   
   
9. Be verbal and loud in your warnings, with or without 911.
   
   
10. Carry one of the optional concealed carry insurance choices out there, just like you insure your bike for that liability.
    
    
11. Along with the Second Amendment, your rights include the right to remain silent and first consult a lawyer. Without exception, exercise those last two rights if push comes to shove.

Prudently carrying a firearm for self defense is not all that difficult. But, just like taking riding lessons before buying a motorcycle and heading out into morning commuter traffic, a little bit of preparation, thought, and training can go a long way. There are tens of thousands of peace officers that wear a firearm every day, in compliance and observance of the laws in their jurisdiction, and in addition work under additional departmental policies and state legislation that the ordinary citizen doesn't have to. Having been an LEO at one time, this is not particularly stressful or arduous. As a private person, there is no reason you should find it particularly more difficult or onerous as an adult than these people do.

But simply buying and carrying a firearm with no further thought or preparation is like the 16 year old kid who buys a crotch rocket for his first bike and heads out into the traffic. Don't be that guy.

BigFeet wrote:

And I fully expect some ignoramus to say: "I'd rather be convicted by 12 than carried by 6."

You may call me an ignoramus but I am a firm believer in that comment as well as the following........."better him, than me!!"

Good off topic conversation. Interesting that both carrying a firearm and riding a motorcycle require a similar sane mindset if one wants to tilt the odds of success every so slightly in their favor. Exercising both rights in my opinion offer a wonderful feeling of freedom. A mistake with either can leave you facing a lifetime of consequence.

Interesting topic.. good thoughts to start it, Larry.

As usual, Jagar has some very eloquent & well reasoned comments.. I almost always learn something useful in his posts.

I've not carried a weapon on my rides.. i've never felt vulnerable, & i pack pretty light, though a small pistol doesn't take much space. But there are some places i would not ride, either with a group or alone, armed or not. Here in Az we have places that are definitely 'bad guy' territory. A swat team border agent just got killed this last week from one. Armed or not, i do not feel the risk is worth it to go riding near those areas.

It sucks, though. In my own country, my own state, i have to avoid regions because of the possibility of death. Now i know some people think that is the only reason i ride, to risk death, but in reality i prefer to be alive. Riding is much more difficult when you are dead.

Perhaps some day a state or federal militia can go into these areas & clean them out so our country is safe for the citizens. Then maybe i can go on some rides in the area.. beautiful country.. great winter riding.

rydnseek wrote:

I've not carried a weapon on my rides.. i've never felt vulnerable, & i pack pretty light, though a small pistol doesn't take much space.

I'm certainly not suggesting that everyone carry, or even that those who do carry should carry all the time. Carrying is a personal decision. The individual making the decision is the one who has to live with the results of that decision either way, so that's that.

However...

You don't carry a handgun because you think you may need it - you carry it for those moments when you never dreamed you would need it. If you thought you were vulnerable you wouldn't go there in the first place - or you'd take something expressly built for the most effectiveness in a fight.

A handgun is there for when you come across an elk calf bleating and struggling beside the road with a broken back after being hit by a vehicle. Much preferable to risking getting your brains knocked out while trying to beat it's head in with a rock as a miserable means of putting it down.

A handgun is for sticking in the ear of the bear or cougar chewing on your other arm.

And a handgun is for when you come out of the washroom at one of the highway rest stops not too far from Pocotello Idaho and see three males with hoodies on start walking towards you from three different directions, between you and your bike, with only your bike and an old beater car in the parking area... Funny how adopting low ready while backing away can change the dynamics of a situation in just a few seconds!

I've experienced the first and last situations and know a geologist who experienced the middle one. That, on top of being one of those "Better to have and not need than need and not have" types of guys is why I carry when I legally can. I can think of lots of reasons why I should carry that extra bit of weight not much bigger than my wallet, but other than where legal restrictions exist, I can't think of any reason where I'm better off and better prepared leaving it at home..

Quote :

But there are some places i would not ride, either with a group or alone, armed or not. Here in Az we have places that are definitely 'bad guy' territory... Perhaps some day a state or federal militia can go into these areas & clean them out so our country is safe for the citizens.

Well, that's certainly a bit of a different situation than the ordinary. Those areas are almost a paramilitary zone and a no man's land of sorts. It boggles my mind that a sovereign nation would essentially surrender areas to amoral violent criminals, not to mention allowing a floodgate of illegal immigrants to continue practically unabated.

Being from a background of not just practising it but teaching it as well, I have thought for some time now that this would be an excellent training area for military recce & sniper exercises and training courses, complete with the entire gamut of our STANO gear. What a great place to both train for asymmetrical warfare and project the rule of law at the same time. I wonder how that gunfight last week would have went if the border guys had been using Coral-Cs, AN/PAQ- 4Cs, and AN/PVS-14s? These murderous, pillaging bastards want to play by big boy rules, it is beyond me why we don't accommodate their wish. Instead, we let these roving bands of thugs and rapists operate almost at will, and the fact their victims are overwhelmingly illegal immigrants changes nothing about just how wrong that is.

But, in our concern for the rule of law, at least President Obama and Secretary of State Clinton did show enough initiative to report Arizona's recent legislation concerning illegal immigrants to the UN so those laws can be reviewed by countries like Libya and Venezuela! Doesn't that at least count for something?

With the advance of the Islamist's killing spree against Americans, I felt it prudent to get a Concealed Carry. Not only do hard working Americans have to be concerned about home-grown criminals and thugs, but now we have Islamic terrorits wanting to kill any and all Americans. Since I spend a good deal of time out in the woods, having a conceal carry allows me to provide protection for me and my family.

SteveO wrote:

With the advance of the Islamist's killing spree against Americans, I felt it prudent to get a Concealed Carry. Not only do hard working Americans have to be concerned about home-grown criminals and thugs, but now we have Islamic terrorits wanting to kill any and all Americans. Since I spend a good deal of time out in the woods, having a conceal carry allows me to provide protection for me and my family.

Unless a person is supremely confident that:

a. Their life or the life of their family will never be threatened by a two or four legged predator
or
b. Armed intervention from a sworn peace officer will appear immediately should their lives ever be at risk

Then choosing the option to carry for self defense seems imminently sensible to me. I carry a handgun because I can't carry a cop/conservation officer in my back pocket.

However, I would not be too concerned with "Islamists" - and I have spent more than a little bit of time carrying a rifle around Muslims.

For starters, I wouldn't be here today if on two separate occasions, Muslims hadn't snuck in to tell us about mines being laid in routes we would have been travelling with our carriers. They not only risked they and their families being murdered for snitching, they also braved being shot by us as they snuck up in the dark to avoid being seen and identified by the bad guys' lookouts. We found out through our terps that their view of Islam was that it would have been a grievous sin for them to do nothing.

For that reason, never mind the tremendous hospitality and genuine friendliness I have experienced from Muslims, I have a lot of respect for practicing Muslims in general - and contempt and real hate for the very, very tiny minority of vicious, malicious ones who have subverted their religion to justify their horrendous actions.

Second, in Yugoslavia, just to refresh memories, we were trying to primarily protect Muslims that were being slaughtered by good Christian Serbs and Croats. Nobody talked about crazy assed Christian extremists back then like they talk about Muslims now. Just sayin'...

Third, Wahabbist Muslims ARE a problem - and they've been causing other Muslims grief for the last 150 years, including murdering them with abandon as well, and we haven't cared until now because they weren't paying attention to us much.

Fourth, there are indeed whackjob Islamic terrorists running around in North America - not too terribly different from Timothy McVeigh in many ways. However, on the list of possible threats to your life, their rarity puts them as a risk factor way down the list below the local gang bangers, muggers, tweekers, road rage morons, and common violent neighborhood thugs.

Context, as they say, is everything. Besides, when their weapon of choice is the IED, I am not sure how a handgun is going to either stop or deter a suicide bomber with his finger on the switch. Most of our guys killed by IEDs - not a few of whom were friends and coworkers of mine - didn't even know what was going on when the blast went off. And they were walking with a rifle in the alert position in the low ready, never mind carrying a handgun concealed in a holster.

I personally believe in carrying. If the only known threat out there was Islamo-fascist terrorists, however, I don't think I'd bother.

Jäger wrote:

........If the only known threat out there was Islamo-fascist terrorists,........

These are the kind of people I was talking about.

Recall what happened at Fort Hood, Texas. If a nut can bring a gun on base and start shooting up our military folks, how much more vulnerable are we out there in the civilian part? When I was stationed in Germany, we had to check in our personal weapons with the Armory and could only get them during our off time, which meant tracking down the Armory guard.

In today's society; kids packing guns and being trained to kill by video games, criminals are more desperate due to the bad economy, and people overall are becoming more desperate to do what they have to do to make ends meet, its better to be prepared and never have to use it, then become a victim to some nut who doesn't care anymore.

"shoot to kill" is definitely not the phrase I would use per se, but it's definitely a good motto to live by. If situation arises where my life is in danger and I have to use a deadly force to stop it, I would prefer the predator in the situation was stopped by death. Harder for him/her bring charges/lawsuit against you if they aren't there to do it. Just my .02

rydnseek wrote:

Now i know some people think that is the only reason i ride, to risk death, but in reality i prefer to be alive. Riding is much more difficult when you are dead.

rydnseek, that there is signature material!

edit

edit

Geeze this reminds me of the religion topic LOL
People usually are polarized on this stuff and I think it's just a matter of context
No one is talking about driving down the street and getting cut off, whipping out the 9mm and shooting to kill
Put it like this
Someone has a gun on your kid, are you going to shoot him in the calf? shoot the gun from his hand?
You have 2 seconds
I don't need to think about it

I think probably you replied to the wrong thread

Grouch?
Thought I was just yaking with some people in a group
Anyway, thanks for the helpful Internet forum reading tips

Btw, my respect for firearms goes back to birth, my father and grandfather put me on the right road

So much venom!! Winter needs to end so we can all ride again.

sure, whatever