Dobeck Tuning Services

With Dobeck Performance being the manufacture and designer of the FMF Power Programmer has anyone used their tuning service to aid in tuning your fuel? They rent a unit called the SAFR for $20.00 per week so you can see your air to fuel ratio on your bike. They provide several videos on how to install the unit and to understand how to decide on the air to fuel ratio you want to use. I wanted to see what someone thought of the process who tried it.

Also the FMF unit they make is the Gen 3 model ( They make a Gen 3.5 but not for the WR250R ) They currently have an upgraded unit the Gen 4 which they call the AFR+. Is anyone using one of those on a WRR? I see it provides a gauge where you can monitor and modify your air to fuel ration on the fly. Again I was hoping to get an opinion on someone that uses the unit.

I know for myself, it put my mind to ease from watching the videos they provided. From reading this topics other posts I have seen many,many suggestions on settings but I am trying to see how tuning the fuel can be made for each individual bikes modifications, and when Dobeck gets into air fuel ration it helped me understand why a certain setting would be the correct one. I am hoping your feedback can help me see if this may be a solution short of visiting a dyno. At the very least I can now use the word Stoichiometric in a sentence and impress my friends. Below is a link to Dobeck's product offering for the WRR.

http://www.techlusion.com/viewproduct.asp?vehicleid=642

I have the Gen 4 on my 2008 wr250r and really like it. It gives you constant readout on the gauge of your Air/Fuel ratio. It also has buttons on the gauge for you to adjust the different modes. For Mods I have the FMF Q4 muffler and stock head pipe. Top of airbox is removed. With the Gen 4 you will have to have a bung for an o2 sensor welded on to the head pipe.  

I don't adjust much with it at this point but it's nice to be able to add or remove fuel if I want at different speeds.

They used my bike for their testing and design. I also have one on my 2012 DL650. I am happy with their work and would buy the Gen 4 for any of my bikes it is available for.

You said"It also has buttons on the gauge for you to adjust the different modes.
I don't adjust much with it at this point but it's nice to be able to add or remove fuel if I want at different speeds. They used my bike for their testing and design."

It's great that someone is using the Gen 4 and that there are adjustment buttons on the gauge. But you stated you have not adjusted settings much but my question is about the ease of adjustment, hopefully you have some experience.
On the Sherco's there is a dual map switch to change from the standard map to a more aggressive map. I am hoping to see if it the settings can be easily changed from a fuel economy setting for normal running around to a more aggressive power setting for more serious off-road. Maybe if you have not done it the people at Dobeck did when they were using your bike for testing and design. Also you mentioned that the threaded bung needed added to the exhaust pipe. Did you do that or did you get someone to weld it? Did you have any trouble determining a location?  Did anything need to be relocated or modified.
Sorry for all the questions but it appears that few have upgraded from the Gen 3 EJK, FMF unit

Just joined the forum a couple weeks ago when we picked up the new 2015 WRR. Been researching programmers for a couple months, and I'm really interested in the Gen 4. If you check out their website, there's video of them going through the programming steps with a bike on the dyno, and they change programming on the fly, from the gauge while it's rolling. Looks to be fast and easy to operate.

Since I was so curious, I called Dobeck today and asked a bunch of questions. The controller won't go closed loop at idle (green zone) but it will go closed loop in the other modes. So, if you're running down the road at cruise at, say, 13.4 AFR, you can enter into the mode, change the target AFR up or down using the left and right buttons (say, up to 13.8), then wait for the unit to drop back into running mode which takes a few seconds with no button presses. The blue light on the right side of the gauge will come on when it's dropped back into closed loop. In the video, they change AFRs on the dyno while it's under some load. After speaking with them and having them satisfactorily answer my questions, this is the unit I'm going to want since it's about as simple to operate as all the 3.0 series controllers, but can actually display AFR and be tuned to run closed loop. You can run different AFR's in different zones, so you can select a leaner AFR for cruise, and a richer AFR for accel, and wide open throttle.

I've tuned engines and cars on dynos, so I'm a big believer in seeing AFR. I like the fact that no matter what bolts-ons or mods are on the bike, the unit will self tune to a specified AFR in the selected zone. Instead of having to build a 2D map when mods are added or deleted, it will simply keep tuning closed loop to a selected AFR. The controls operate very similar to the 3.0, so it's all stuff that people are already familiar with. The tuner just uses the gauge as the interface now.

Seems a lot like the self tuning EFI that F.A.S.T., MSD, Edelbrock and so on have been releasing for hot rod automotive applications. i've installed and tuned those, and they work fantastic. Sounds like the same logic applied to a motorcycle EFI application. I'm going to be all over this in the coming weeks.

The search is always for the best settings on whatever brand name you buy the Tuner under. When a tuner is purchased the best settings they can estimate you will need, are set in, but from there the games start for the numbers you want. But your point is very good, regardless of whatever air box mod you make or if you buy FMF, Graves or Mary's Mufflers the Gen 4 doesn't care. The more air you can get thru the engine the more fuel will be added to maintain the selected AFR

Like you I also have had some experience with AFR outside the motorcycle world but before the O2 sensor was available we used an intake manifold pressure gauge and exhaust temperature. You would be surprised how much a foggy or dew covered morning can effect AFR. There would be several pounds difference in intake pressure from the moist air not getting through the air filter and a loss of performance. The static settings of the Gen 3 was not made to compensate for short term variations, not without the O2 sensor that the GEN 4 has.

Birthday in a couple weeks, left the part numbers, the website address, the phone number, who to talk to and gauge color on my wife's desk!

Traveller wrote:

Just joined the forum a couple weeks ago when we picked up the new 2015 WRR.   Been researching programmers for a couple months, and I'm really interested in the Gen 4.   If you check out their website, there's video of them going through the programming steps with a bike on the dyno, and they change programming on the fly, from the gauge while it's rolling.   Looks to be fast and easy to operate.  

Since I was so curious, I called Dobeck today and asked a bunch of questions.   The controller won't go closed loop at idle (green zone) but it will go closed loop in the other modes.   So, if you're running down the road at cruise at, say, 13.4 AFR, you can enter into the mode, change the target AFR up or down using the left and right buttons (say, up to 13.8), then wait for the unit to drop back into running mode which takes a few seconds with no button presses.   The blue light on the right side of the gauge will come on when it's dropped back into closed loop.   In the video, they change AFRs on the dyno while it's under some load.   After speaking with them and having them satisfactorily answer my questions, this is the unit I'm going to want since it's about as simple to operate as all the 3.0 series controllers, but can actually display AFR and be tuned to run closed loop.   You can run different AFR's in different zones, so you can select a leaner AFR for cruise, and a richer AFR for accel, and wide open throttle.  

I've tuned engines and cars on dynos, so I'm a big believer in seeing AFR.   I like the fact that no matter what bolts-ons or mods are on the bike, the unit will self tune to a specified AFR in the selected zone.  Instead of having to build a 2D map when mods are added or deleted, it will simply keep tuning closed loop to a selected AFR.  The controls operate very similar to the 3.0, so it's all stuff that people are already familiar with.   The tuner just uses the gauge as the interface now.

Seems a lot like the self tuning EFI that F.A.S.T., MSD, Edelbrock and so on have been releasing for hot rod automotive applications.   i've installed and tuned those, and they work fantastic.   Sounds like the same logic applied to a motorcycle EFI application.   I'm going to be all over this in the coming weeks.

You'd be better off with a PC5 with Autotune. The Power commander allows you to adjust timing as well, and since your talking about AFR, you can set that as well. Having a live display AFR gauge is useless, as you should be paying attention to the road/trail. Sure it's more money, but why pay $400 for a gadget that gives you the same horsepower as the basic flashing lights dumb-dumb unit, but for twice the money. Spend the little bit extra, and get a solution that will give you all the throttle response AND power.
That's just my personal bias, as I've always had something against these Dobeck units. It'd be ok if they billed them as electronic fuel adders, but they're certainly not 'tuners'.

Here's my reasoning. FMF/Dobeck/Attitude controller ~$200. Dobeck 3.5 ~$250 and it adds or subtracts fuel, percentage based. Dobeck 4 (AFR+) ~$400 including the mount and it tunes closed loop (autotune). PC 5 with ignition and autotune, $399 + $280 + $249 for a screen to see what you're doing. That's the better part of $1000. If I was tuning a car project making several hundred HP, and I was racing in a class that was competitive where 1-2% total power was the difference between winning and losing, I'd be looking for the last HP with ignition and fuel mapping.

But I'm not tuning a race car. I'm tuning a 30 (ish) HP 250cc single cylinder bike engine. I want it to work at the AFR I set, in the RPM ranges I set. The Gen 4 tunes to a closed loop AFR in all the modes except for idle. That means I can play around with it to get the AFR I want, then it locks in and I can forget about it. I'm certainly not going to be running down the road playing with the tuner. The difference between it and the flashing lights/dumb unit is that it not only reads AFR, but there's no butt dyno guessing about whether there was a real improvement or not. It will also adjust itself when I bolt another exhaust on, modify my airbox, or the density altitude changes.

Some people are comfortable with spending $200 on the simple units, some $400 for AFR with closed loop, some $700+ for 2D mapping. With the Dobeck AFR+, I can get closed loop that's programmable for $400. That's all I'm willing to spend on a 250cc dual sport play machine. The tech guy I spoke with answered the phone, was very helpful and stayed on the line to answer all my questions, and was pleasant. That means a lot to me, since I grew up in a time where customer service meant something.

This is a 30 ish HP 250cc bike that I purchased to have fun with. It's a dual sport, which means it's a compromise. Not really a street bike, not really a dedicated off-roader, but it's a great mix of the two, and WAY more competent in the dirt than any of my other enduro bikes ever were. I can't get my head around spending the extra money to get 1 and at best 2 more HP out of it. I'll spend the extra money on the rear shock and the forks. If I really need to get crazy on power, I'll put a big bore kit on it, then I'll do some of my porting and head tricks and upgrade to the PC5.

Does the Dobeck AFR+ do timing as Welles fuel? From what others have said changing the timing via the PCV wakes the bike up quite a bit. I'm keen to try out changing the timing soon. A few people have shared their maps.

Also if you hunt around the PCV is a lot cheaper than you think. Motomummy has the fuel and ignition controller for $285 add auto tune for approx another $200. I do not know of anyone using the screen but I am sure it has its use. I find tuning off the laptop works quite well. You adjust the auto tune trim values to your base map when you want of the computer and enjoy the ride.

But each to their own. I like the rock solid reviews of the PCV but found nearly nothing on the Dobeck controllers for the WR

The Dobeck does not do timing.   I like the Power Commander setup.   It offers a great deal of adjustability.   It looks like a nice system from all I've read about it.  

The system can be had for around $500, but I don't see a visual way to tune it without a laptop.   If you want to tune the system from the bike, it requires the POD-300 display which lists for $250.  I'm sure it can be had for a couple hundred.  

A disclaimer.   I've been playing with bikes since 1974.   I've built hot rod engines, race engines, worked at dealerships and machine shops.   I've tuned on engine dynos and chassis dynos.   I LIKE adjustability.   However, that being said, I don't feel that tuning a play bike to the last nth to get 1-2 more HP out of it is good for durability.   The WR has high compression at 11.8:1.   That's high enough that you can run into real problems very fast if you advance the spark too much.   There is no knock sensor, so there's no spark control other than look up tables.  One hot day with some gas that's less than perfect, and it's game over.  I ride in 100+ weather sometimes.  Seen way too many melted engines from people that over advanced in bad air.  The factory spark map is "safe" and I want to run this bike for a long time.

The Dobeck AFR+ has been out for awhile for ATVs, UTVs and streetbikes.   They just released the CRF250L and WR250R/X model in June, so it's not been out long.  The initial press looks good, but admittedly it hasn't got a ton of market penetration into the dual sport crowd (at least on the net).  The ATV/UTV/street bike crowd seem to really like it and it gets good reviews from shops and people using it in those applications.

I've seen a bunch of great reviews on the PCV.   It's been out longer, so I expected to read more about it.  It's not as simple to operate.   In my opinion, it has more functionality than most people need for a single cylinder 250cc machine.  Having torn down engines that some tuner was trying to get the last little bit out of, I feel that there are things that some people just aren't qualified to mess with since they don't understand the combustion cycle thoroughly.   More's Law comes into play too often (if that adjustment helped, then more should be better!).  That's my opinion only, but comes from years of working on broken engines.  

In my research, I'm leaning towards the Dobeck for my own machine, because it gives me the functionality that I'm looking for at the price I'm comfortable with and uses a simple interface.   I like what Rick Ramsey has to say about his.   I like the simplicity of the autotuning functions because I've installed aftermarket auto-learning fuel injection on cars that had similar tuning logic.  I like that the company answers the phone and answers pointed questions intelligently.  I like that they produce them there at their shop, not drop ship them from China.  Mind you, this is just the way I'm currently leaning.   I may decide that I want each gear tunability, 2D mapping and ignition control at a later date.  

If I do, I want a STAND ALONE computer. Something that is not a piggy back that is interpreting intercepted signals and then modifying them. I like the TuneECU format, but it doesn't support our ECU. The PCV and the Dobeck units are still, at their core, signal intercepting and modification setups. They're reacting to an ECM output and then changing that output. Unless you can tune to a very tight tolerance with a stand alone, you don't want to be right up against the maximum limits of anything. You just can't intercept a signal, modify the signal, output the signal and have it output properly in a rapidly changing system like engine acceleration if you're right up against tuning limits like detonation. If you're trying to get the last ounce of performance out of a system with a piggyback, all it takes is a missed step under load to cause damage. If the O2 sensor drifts, or the signal inputs/outputs drift on a hot day, then I don't want to be up against fuel quality issues with maxed out timing and fuel maps using a piggy back. I'd rather ride it with a good tune that's a bit safer for the type of mission that the bike is used for.

I'll see what I think about the Dobeck once I have one in my hands and tune on it a bit.   If I end up not liking it or have problems with it, I won't hold back.   I'm at the age where I tell it like it is. If it works, I'll say so. If it doesn't, I'll say it even louder... ;) Hoping to have one later this month.

When I asked about the different fuel supplementing options it was to solve a problem that is created when changes are made to the exhaust and air box which creates a lean fuel condition and engine damage. it appears it has changed to an attempt to add horsepower so I will set forth my goal. The goal is efficient performance without a major sacrifice if fuel mileage or a reduction in engine life. A horsepower increase is a side effect of efficient performance not the goal. If horsepower was my goal I would not be on a site for a 250cc engine but on the Beta forum trying to see why my rear tire life was so short on my 500cc dual sport.
My options are one of those green/yellow/red light units in whatever name plate it comes under and then rent the temporary AFR gauge and set it to a AFR that is a good compromise between power and fuel economy. Not finding a dyno and setting to the best horsepower because that goes against the goal of fuel economy and engine life.
The other option is the Gen 4 unit so I could have the option of setting a leaner mixture to run back and forth to work for best mileage and then a richer mixture to off road to climb that hill or to lift the front wheel easier over the logs. The Gen4 will also maintain the settings if I make further changes. I certainly believe that if I have the riding skills to look at my speedometer I can glace at a gauge if needed.
Before I change engine timing I need to know why the current timing is incorrect, how will it effect the rest of the engine, will timing have any real effect without changing a camshaft, porting the head, changing the compression ratio, the list can go on and on because getting horsepower gains is a goal they never gets fulfilled. I am an old hillbilly and have my own set of truths and I know a dog that craps fast does not crap long. I like Traveler's points, that extra 1 or 2 horsepower has the potential of harm. Having 1 or 2 less horsepower will not interfere with two of my other goals. One, to ride and have fun and two to spend the least amount of money for a efficient running bike.

Ordered an AFR+ today. Waterproof option, bar mount, gauge cover. Should be here by the end of next week.

Oh, meant to mention, firefighters, police, active service members and veterans get a decent discount by providing proof. They support people who serve, which is nice in this day and age of made overseas stuff.

The box is here. I'll get the O2 bung welded this week and hope to install it by the weekend. Will give install pics and riding impressions after it's on and I have some time on it.

ChainDrive wrote:

When I asked about the different fuel supplementing options it was to solve a problem that is created when changes are made to the exhaust and air box which creates a lean fuel condition and engine damage.

WRR/X are only lean at low engine loads & RPM's for emissions. At higher loads they add fuel for warranty reasons, you will not hurt one with air box & an improved muffler.

Ended up doing the header last night after work. Welds were turning out decent, so I just did it. Turned out nice in my opinion. Going to install the rest this evening as long as the weather is decent (not cold!). Don't have a mount for the gauge, as the one that I received over the weekend was the wrong size. Supposed to have another one tomorrow.

Installed the AFR+ this evening.   Finally ended up pulling the flapper door actuator, reservoir and hoses.   They were just in the way.   Here's a couple pics of the O2 sensor install.   Note, this is NOT the Bosch sensor that came with the Dobeck.   It's a junk one I used for welding the bung and to mock up install.





Here's a couple pics of under the seat after running the harness.   The O2 sensor connector is under the tank mount area.  





I ran the main gray harness that runs the gauge with the electrical harness and cables that go through the frame and up the left side.



For right now, I just hooked up the gauge and left it loose.   The mount won't be here until tomorrow, and the bracket that hooks the gauge to a mount might be here tomorrow, or might be here Thursday.  



The bike fired right up, the lights all worked, and the needle stayed locked in the far left position for 30-40 seconds until the O2 sensor warmed up, then it started reading just fine.   I adjusted the yellow zone to 13.5 AFR, and the red zone to 12.7.   Bumped a little extra fuel in at idle, not much, and bumped a little in for the acceleration fueling.   I need to ride it to figure out if the green to yellow and yellow to red transitions are where I want them.   It runs in close loop in yellow mode when the RPM is brought up, and runs in closed loop as it transitions to the red zone, so I just need a mount and some test drive time!

So far, so good.

Mounted the gauge this evening after work. Took it for a 25 minute ride. Had to adjust a couple things, but it ran well right away for the most part. Transition to the red (w.o.t.) zone didn't happen initially, just had to bump the transition down a bit. Leaned out the cruise to 14.0 and w.o.t.to 13.0. For off-road, I'll run 13.5 in the yellow zone. Had to richen the pump shot a tiny bit. After the adjustments, I simply watched the afr while I was riding. In closed loop, it just locks in and holds it. At cruise, it cycles very slightly over and under the target number. That's typical of closed loop operation with fuel injection, so you can see it adjusting.

Now for riding impressions. Once I had it adjusted, I rode around for a few miles. The bike is noticeably snappier. Wants to rotate the front end up in first gear, even lofted it a bit upshifting to 2nd. Lots quicker to 70 and it revs cleanly with no flat spots. Looking forward to trying it off-road Saturday. Really noticeable difference at the initial throttle tip in. No more feeling of on/off switch from closed to partial throttle. It's really quite a hoot to ride for a 250. Will update after a ride in the dirt.

This thing is so simple to program that I pretty much had it set up in 10 minutes. I might tweak a couple settings, but it's totally smooth and rideable now.

Traveller..i not sure when i would be going down the programming road but i was going to request that you summarize your bike status for stock intake and exhaust items removed {ie if exup is removed..air box mod etc etc.} as compared to the level of performance you are reporting.

thanks as well for the great info flowing into the site.

I did cut a 3" X 3" section out of the top of the airbox and put Frogzskin over it to keep water out. I'm using a UNI air filter also. I did smooth out the header inlet quite a bit as the factory weld intrudes into the pipe. I've done that on other bikes as well. Where the factory welds the outer ring that the retaining collar attaches to the head, they usually leave a very thick weld bead.

The pipe inside the muffler coming out of the catalyst area that has an end cap over it, has three holes drilled in it now ala Rick Ramsey's WR250R mods. I also built a new outlet using 1.25" mandrel bent 304 stainless pipe to replace the stock peashooter in the stock tip. I reinstalled the spark arrestor after putting the new pipe in. The new pipe only goes about 1 1/2" into the spark arrestor instead of being nearly shoved up against the front cap of the arrestor like stock. It fits inside the stock end piece on the muffler so that it looks as stock as I could make it.

I retained the EXUP and air injection for now. I think the EXUP does help the bottom end, and I don't feel that it's enough of a restriction with the stock muffler, that eliminating it makes any sense other than weight loss. I've spoken with the local Yamaha dealer about it (the service manager used to work for a top fuel team) and they said that everyone that's put an aftermarket exhaust on these WR's has lost bottom end. The people at the dealership have ridden modified bikes, and they say it's very noticeable around town. They picked up a little top end at the cost of bottom end. Since this bike isn't a torque monster down low anyway due to the large piston/short stroke architecture, I wanted to retain as much low end as possible. I'm thinking about eliminating the air injection however.

I need to move the red zone engagement just a tad higher. It wants to go into the red zone at freeway speeds, so I'm going to have to find the happy place between cruise speed and WOT red zone. Did great on the commute in this morning. I'm going to take the long way home this evening and get some more time in and see if I can't get the red zone engagement tweaked.

Traveller
It has been a while since you posted that very good info on the install but you have now had a while to run the bike. What have you learned about getting the right settings and have you had any issues?

Been updating in the build thread. Just rode again last weekend. Having a blast with the bike running out in the desert around here. Figured out that I'm just going to have to run slightly different settings off-road and on-road. It only takes a few seconds to do, so no big deal. I found I needed to change the tire pressures also, so it just needs to be tweaked a bit to run it's best in either world. 15 psi in the dirt, 26 on the pavement.

Update on something I wanted to fix last fall but didn't get to.   Installed an air injection block off last night and pulled the air injection setup.   Ran the engine before, and after installing the block off.   Verified that at idle, the air injection is pretty active, as the AFR is in the 14.5-15 range, and then only around 12.2 or so with the block off in place.   Looks like the air injection is doing the same thing air injection does on automobiles, which is cycle the valve at warmup to light off the catalyst, then adds air to the exhaust to keep the temps up in the exhaust.  This will screw with the AFR+ system or the Power Commander with auto tune, but the AFR+ does NOT tune the idle range at least. It only allows you to pull or add fuel from stock, then watch the AFR. That means I need to pull a little fuel at idle, since 12.2 is too rich.  It tunes (with the wideband) everywhere above the idle range, so with any of these O2 sensor systems that are add-ons, the air injection needs to be blocked.

On an OEM system that uses an O2 sensor, the ECM is programmed to be looking for AFR changes when the air injection is operating to check O2 operation and also air injection operation.   Something to keep in mind with the piggyback systems is they aren't set up to allow for air injection.   It didn't seem to be causing any issues at cruise or W.O.T., so I wasn't worried about it, but I had a couple hiccups while riding as the weather got colder last fall.   I quickly realized that the air injection was probably kicking in at low throttle cruise in colder weather as a way of keeping the catalyst temp up like it does in automotive apps.   The Dobeck reads AFR and adjusts, it can't compensate for air injection.  I saw the AFR twitch lean and it corresponded with the hiccup I felt in the motor, so I'm pretty sure it was the Dobeck trying to hunt and keep the AFR richer when air injection cycled at lower throttle.  

So, if you want to run an O2, you'll have to remove the air injection or block it off at any rate.  I was sure that was the case, but I verified it last night.