Dodged a Bullet: Ran with too much oil. Now OK [was:seeping]

[Edit: Going to call this bad boy. There MAY still bee some minor seepage - hard to tell - but it's SO minor, I'm just going to ride. Boom. Done.]

'08 "R," 2000-ish miles.

Ok, I did my second oil change (bought it w/ 450 miles and supposedly one oil change on it, I changed it when I got it with no problems).

This time, it never seemed to be topping up to the line, so I kept adding a little more oil, little more oil. Finally seemed good. I did a short shakedown to get gas, came home, looked good. Wife and I then put about 80 miles on. Only when I got home did I see fresh oil dripping off the bottom of the bike. Crap. I put it on the stand and sure enough the entire sight glass was full - WAY past the line. WTF?



So I drained down to below the top line, washed off and dried the engine, and let it idle for a while. Even revving it, there was no seepage, so I was hopeful, Also, the level still looked good.

Then went for a spin. Not two miles out, I stopped and checked, and I was still seeping oil. It's hard to tell exactly where from due to the airflow dispersing the oil - and it's clean, so it's hard to see - but at the very least it looks like the bottom (lowest) gasket around the cylinder is leaking on both sides and maybe the back. Front is dry. The rear section of the second gasket up also seem like it may be seeping. Also, when I got back, the level was a little above the line again. W. T. F????

I've drained a little more off (still above the bottom sight glass line when on the stand), but I ran out of daylight for another run.

The engine sounds and pulls the same, so I don't think I've totally killed it, but I'm hesitant to run it more until the seepage stops and/or someone assures me nothing will blow up as long as I keep it topped up from here on until I can get it fixed.

So, what did I screw up and what am I going to have to do to fix it? Thanks for any input.



Edit to add: the leakage is NOT from the drain plug, filter cover, nor that silly 'prime' plug thing on the upper back side. Those are all snug and clean.

Dang. A tip I've read for finding the source of a leak suggests using spray deodorant or foot powder. Spray a clean engine and go for a ride, supposedly the oil leaves tracks in the powder. A Ratio Rite measuring cup is super handy for oil changes.

Sarah

Edit: Also wondering if some excess oil might have made its way to the airbox; may need to check the air filter.

I'd also check the airbox.
Have a look inside and see if anything is drenched.

There's a little piece of see-through hose at the bottom of the airbox held on by a wire clip.
Remove this and see if anything drains out.

Could be from the crankcase breather hose coming off the cylinder head cover, which leads to the airbox.

Just remember that you only need 1,300cc of oil the next time.
If you feel the need to pour in more than that, double-check what you're doing.
Was the bike level and straight up-and-down and not on the side stand while looking at the oil level window?

I've seen guys peering at the oil level window while pouring in more and more oil while looking for the top of the oil to come into view through the window
They later realized they had already completely covered the oil level window with oil but did not know this because they were actually looking through the semi-clear oil the whole time, and by then they'd already had way too much oil in it.

How are you coming along? Unless I was advised otherwise, I'm thinking I would make sure the air filter is in good shape, do a complete oil and filter change (remember the measuring cup) and see what happens. Per the manual you need 1400 cc for an oil and filter change, 1300 cc if you just change the oil and leave the filter be. See the Maintenence subforum for a link to the online manual. Holler back and let us know how this goes.

Sarah

Sorry for the radio silence - I'd read the responses, but we got nailed by those Midwest storms yesterday, so I had to help babysit around work until power came back (at the end of the day) - so no forum-trawling time.

I love the foot powder idea. It's funny that the oil being so clean is actually a hindrance - dirty oil would be so much easier to see.

The airbox and filter (including the 'drain' tube) are clean. I'd actually cleaned the filter the same time I did the oil change (and had to remove about 8 acorns the mice had deposited), so I know the current condition matches the pre-screw-up condition.

As for using a measuring device on the source oil, it's very much a case of knowing better/"Do as I say, not as I do." I knew how much oil was to go in - had the printout from the manual right in front of me - but I was starting with a partial bottle and my graduated funnel had gotten schmutzed up and instead of taking the time to clean it and use it, I figured I'd 'wing it.' Yet again, 'saving time' does just the opposite. FYI, I now have a brand new such funnel and will use one for clean oil, the other for dirty.

Admittedly, while filling, I had the bike on the side stand to make it easier to get the oil into the fill hole - otherwise my funnel was diverting as much oil onto the floor as into the crankcase. But I DID put it on the stand to check the level - and I KNOW I saw the line, not a full sight glass. It was right where it should have been, but clearly some extra oil was hanging up somewhere and/or the stand was not, itself level. That's a problem w/ such a tiny crankcase/volume of oil - the slightest tilt out of level and the sight glass picture is entirely different. My 750 is much more forgiving. Though that kind of makes the point why it's so important to MEASURE what goes in, don'it?

At this point I still have not run the engine since the last draw-down, but it doesn't leak/seep while sitting, so that's good. I may get time to futz with it tonight. We'll see. I was hopeful the airbox was going to be drenched and help explain the post-wash-down oil, but it was not so. I'm still naively hopeful that what I saw on the last ride was just the remnant excess getting pumped/blown out, but I'm realistic enough to have priced out gasket sets as well.

Stupid hurts (and/or costs money).

Maybe if it still leaks (so little) I'll just ride it as is and throw down a handful of kitty litter any time I park. I'll even get some HD stickers to put on it.

Thanks for the tips and not (yet) calling me stupid to my face. On the bright side, the motor is now really REALLY clean.

I know it is a common philosophy, but I completely disagree with the theory that measuring the oil that goes into your crankcase is "better" than relying on a level. Having some idea what sort of volume of oil *should* fit in the thing is useful, but at the end of the day it is level that matters most. Casting anomalies and the possibility that you didn't get quite all of the oil drained out in the first place can both contribute to a measured amount of oil showing up at a very different level on the sight glass.

Filling these little bikes with oil can be a royal pain the *ss. Tiny little fill plug at a stupid angle. We have a funnel with a flexible tube that we use to fill & it goes somewhat better (as does using two people, if you have that option). It is definitely important to hold the bike upright for several minutes for the oil to all drain down before confirming the oil level.

Good points, Chickie. In fact, the funnel I SHOULD have used (and now have two of) has a flexible tube and a twist valve so you can fill it with a known amount, then let 'er rip (and top up from there).

Brief update:
First, the good news; I figured out the error of my ways. The oil level reads VASTLY different when the bike is upright on it's own tires versus when it's upright on my jack stand. Eager to use my new stand, I'd been checking the level with it up there. I discovered the now-obvious difference this evening, drained a few more ml of oil out, then went for a ride.

Now, the bad; at first, I thought I was in good shape. as after a few miles, the lower gasket, as I could see it from my seat, was still dry. Whoopie! However when I pulled to a stop on the shoulder to do a spot check of the oil level, I saw a fresh dribble of oil trickling down the back side of the engine. Phoey! I really can't tell where it's coming from - I didn't try the powder trick yet. It really seems like it would be coming from the "oil check bolt," but that whole thing is clean and dry. Next guess is somewhere between the intake manifold and the coolant collar as 'somewhere up there' seems to be the highest point of fresh oil. Of course, I don't know if the oil leaked from up there or got blown up there. I really wish this thing would leak at idle so I could get a good look at where it's coming from. Also, I either need a mirror on a stick (should have one anyway) or a really tiny camera to shove up there.

BTW, I explored the airbox a little more, and there are two pipes/hoses which connect just fore of the air box (vacuum lines or breather tubes?). I checked both of those and one was VERY SLIGHTLY oily, the other was totally dry.

EDIT: I hit send too soon. Wanted to conclude by saying that at this point, I'm going to ride it and see what it does. Maybe the rest of the stray oil will blow out of whatever nooks, crannies, or breather tubes it might be stuck in, maybe it's a gasket or seal that'll just keep on leaking. I'm about done fretting over it, though. I just wanna ride.

I'm reserving the Dance of Joy until after I ride too work tomorrow, but I MAY have things under control.

I coated the engine in "shower powder" my wife graciously provided and went for a short ride. The trickle was quite tell-tale with the powder and it lead me back tot he top/back of the engine. The only things I could figure were up there (as the head cover gasket looked clean and dry) were the intake manifold, coolant connection, and the oil check bolt. I was pretty confident the oil could NOT be coming from the intake, and I ruled out the coolant connection since the oil coming out was quite clean - not at all mixed with coolant. That left the oil check bolt, which I'd ruled out before. I decided not to make too many assumptions, though, so I rinsed off the powder, pulled the bolt completely, cleaned it, replaced the copper washer and replaced.

I powdered the engine again and went for a ride. THE TOP END STAYED CLEAN! I even thrashed on it a bit - no leaks. However, just as I cracked a beer and called it good, I saw a new drip of oil on the floor. Damn. So the bike was back on the lift and I was on my belly looking at the underside of the bike for the millionth time. This time, though, the 'drippings' were quite dirty. As close as I could track down, this really was 'leftover oil' just making its way off the engine. So I pulled out the hose, toilet brush (my chosen bike scrubber), and engine degreaser. I cleaned that baby by flashlight, went for a drying ride, and SO FAR (a good hour later), the underside is clean clean CLEAN!!!

Will update tomorrow and change the thread title if the danger has truly passed.

Thanks for the tips, people. You got me on the right track.

Good!

Sarah

I wish I could say I'm 100% in the clear, and the leakage is a LOT better, but there's still some fresh oil behind the cylinder/on top of the crank case. My suspect now is the "Speed Sensor," Item #5 on pg 5-56 of the service manual. I don't know if there's any way to get at it and replace that ring without a lot of disassembly - I'll have to have a closer look tonight (and also search the forums to see if anyone's had to replace one yet). If I can't easily get at it, though, I'm inclined to live with it for now. Sucks, but at least the mess is somewhat contained in that little pool area around the sensor. If/when it starts leaking down the case again, maybe I'll get fed up enough to tear into it.