Riots in London..

I might have beat Motokid to a current events post!

Ok. Since everyone knows that Loughner & Breivik were motivated by right wing politics, now that there are riots in the streets in London, are they the left? Is this the left wing strategy, to show the failures of capitalism so they can move in & offer real solutions? It is definitely redistributing wealth.. many of the looters are getting some nice stuff they might not have gotten with just welfare checks.

Left wing jab aside, what's up with the riots? Just an excuse for ghetto people to loot & steal? Will it spread to other financially strapped countries like Italy, Greece (already some there) & the US? What do you think is the cause?



(We all know it's Bush.. but it might be the tea party..)

It seems to me that the entitlement culture is at the root of this rioting.. sure it's a bunch of thugs stealing stuff, but their supporters justify it by saying they're taking from 'the rich'.

So then we get the EDL (English defense league) cruising the streets as vigilantes.

You don't think we'll get something similar in the US? Why not? Are there not high expectations from the entitled to get free stuff? If Obama does not come through with more gravy, won't many be upset?

Socialism is in full swing in the UK. One of the by-products of these policies seems to be a race based civil war.

Will it take the EDL crushing the disgruntled poor minorities? Will the US have to look to white supremacists to solve the problems that the welfare state brings? Is that the future?

I'm sure you could come up with all sorts of complex sociological responses for "Why people riot and vandalize and steal other peoples' stuff". I can probably even remember some of that crap from my crim degree. Sutherland would explain it through differential association. Matza would postulate neutralization theory. I don't really give a damn, because at the core, these people know they are destroying the belongings and businesses of people who have never done anything to injure them.

I know why it goes on.

We don't shoot enough rioters dead with a rock in their hand these days.

Oh horrors, did he actually say that?

Yes indeed, he did.

There is no relationship whatsoever between these oxygen thieving thugs and the peaceful civil rights marches that Martin Luther King led so powerfully. These people are thugs, just like the thugs in Vancouver a few short months ago. Like the thugs who claim "religion" as an excuse for their violence, they always have an excuse other than admitting "I'm just a vicious, thieving asshole".

Can you see this happening in a city in Montana or Idaho? Not likely. Or at least, not for more than a couple of minutes. The owners of the property being trashed, burned, looted, and vandalized would simply start shooting those responsible down. They wouldn't dial 911, they'd call on 1911. The rest would suddenly decide they had someplace else to be in a hurry. If they were like those risking their lives in the "Arab spring" for something approaching our freedoms, then perhaps they'd stay. But these are thugs fighting for nothing, not "freedom fighters"; they merely see an opportunity to destroy and loot with impunity. Take that "you can't catch me and if you do it will be a slap on the wrist" invulnerability away, and they won't want to play anymore.

I remember the Rodney King riots. All those businesses being burned, trashed, and looted. Except for the ones where those Korean store owners were standing there with AR15's and other rifles, guarding their stores. None of the brave, angry, outraged rioters wanted anything to do with them, and their property escaped pretty much unscathed.

Think there might be a lesson in that?

One slight note ... London towners in general don't have the right to own a firearm. If by chance they are one of the privileged few it would be a great risk to employ it for any task other than game hunting. Often to own a firearm you must be a member of a hunting or target club. Firearms are kept on site in a locked vault under the clubs care.

I'm well aware of that.

Like I said, there's a reason this kind of crap doesn't happen in places like Montana and Idaho where attempting to trash and loot somebody's business would end with the thugs bleeding out in the street.

Funny, I've had a couple Clash songs stuck in my head for a week now too

https://youtu.be/yzPbNvIzMf0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9Eck6rox0s

skierd wrote:

Funny, I've had a couple Clash songs stuck in my head for a week now too

https://youtu.be/yzPbNvIzMf0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9Eck6rox0s

Good head bangers.... now they will be stuck in my head too

It seems to me that North Americans are more civilized when it comes to rioting. Even if you had your share of that very bad thing. What I mostly think of is riot around sport events. Maybe they are more common in USA than our media reports. What I can re call that i heard of riots in Vancouver after hockey games but that pretty much what’s been reported. Here in Europe there are riots around many soccer games even in my country. And if somebody wants to call them socialist riots, why not :)

In England and London they have built stadiums and infrastructure very well so the people that want riots don get the chance to do that. It seems to me that it is the same kind of people out on the streets in London that was rioting on the soccer games in the eighties. Here is a very interesting movie about people like that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9Q636h2i18

rokka wrote:

It seems to me that North Americans are more civilized when it comes to rioting. Even if you had your share of that very bad thing. What I mostly think of is riot around sport events. Maybe they are more common in USA than our media reports. What I can re call that i heard of riots in Vancouver after hockey games but that pretty much what’s been reported. Here in Europe there are riots around many soccer games even in my country. And if somebody wants to call them socialist riots, why not :)

In England and London they have built stadiums and infrastructure very well so the people that want riots don get the chance to do that. It seems to me that it is the same kind of people out on the streets in London that was rioting on the soccer games in the eighties. Here is a very interesting movie about people like that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9Q636h2i18

I think you're right about some of the rioters.. a lot of football fans with too much to drink. But many of those are EDL types who are out patrolling the streets, looking for trouble from the rioters.

Your analysis of north american riots is very interesting.. i think Jager has a valid point about the shop owners being armed that keeps the rioters more 'civilized'.

It seems to me the Europeans are having a bigger backlash from the socialist, multicultural agenda than we do in the US.

European countries have a long history of a specific culture. Swedes can trace their lines to ancient vikings. They have a history of culture, heroes, language & legends to keep alive, & many see the immigrants who come in, not assimilating into their culture, as a threat to their own. Plus, the govt. gives housing, food, medical care, & other services to these immigrants, who don't appreciate the home culture, & if anything, feel superior to it. That annoys the euro culture defenders, who feel their culture is superior to the immigrant's.

The US is inherently multicultural.. we don't have that long of a history, & most of it is rooted in the euro cultures our ancestors were leaving. That is one of the reasons that the Japanese despised us pre-ww2, & many of the mid east cultures do now. They see us as mongrels.. intermixed, intermarried people without a culture of their own. And it irks them even more that we are the major world power.. how can this happen with an inferior, mongrel race?

But the riots were not originally race inspired, it seems to me. They were entitlement inspired. ..or at least this was thrown out as a justification. But then when the EDL types got involved, the minorities decided it would be better to stay home. So here are a bunch of cultural defenders our ready for a fight, but no one wants to challenge them, so like they do in football games, they start drinking & tearing stuff up, & pretty soon are indistinguishable from the earlier rioters.

This is simplistic, & not a complete picture, but i think it does describe some of the riot action.

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I think you're right about some of the rioters.. A lot of football fans with too much to drink. But many of those are EDL types who are out patrolling the streets, looking for trouble from the rioters.

I think that in my part of the country we don’t have that kind of problems at all. Polarization of belivs and ideas promote extremest from the both ditch . Our ditches are far right and far left. These people will always find a excuse and love the situation that is I UK at the moment. We had a riot I Gothenburg about 10 years ago that left wing socialist terrorist where responsible of. Inspired by violent socialist/communist.

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Your analysis of north american riots is very interesting.. I think Jager has a valid point about the shop owners being armed that keeps the rioters more 'civilized'.
It seems to me the Europeans are having a bigger backlash from the socialist, multicultural agenda than we do in the US.

I can give more examples of things that I find much more civilized in US than I Europe. Traffic on highways and in big cities are wonderful I US compared to Europe. If you have been driving in Paris you know what I mean. If I want to shift lane and blink, cars break up a little. In Sweden or in France you will turn of at the wrong exit.

People in stores restaurants everywhere wish you a god day and so one. Politeness is everywhere. For example I forgot my camera in a restaurant in New York. The hofmaster run 2 blocks to give my camera back to me? It would never happen In Paris in Sthlm in Wien. Amazing! I gave the guy 50 dollars.

I know what Jäger mentioned. That is really another debate in my opinion. I prefer the society where these riots don’t occur like yours, if I can choose. Have you visited England? Beautiful country! But More depressing suburbia areas than the ones you find in England can only be found in places like Murmansk. Poverty is what I think of when I see English suburbia. I understand that point and it is valid in a sense. I also know that people that have a god life that have something to loose don’t riot on the streets. Why does not Rokka and Rydnseek do riots ?. I don’t defend riots and I don’t understand them.

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European countries have a long history of a specific culture. Swedes can trace their lines to ancient Vikings. They have a history of culture, heroes, language & legends to keep alive, & many see the immigrants who come in, not assimilating into their culture, as a threat to their own. Plus, the govt. gives housing, food, medical care, & other services to these immigrants, who don't appreciate the home culture, & if anything, feel superior to it. That annoys the euro culture defenders, who feel their culture is superior to the immigrant's.

The Swedish industrial success don’t only relay on hard working Sweds. It is a result of Greece Yugoslav and Finnish immigrants as well. The immigrants of the 60s and 70s adapted to our society very fast because they end up working with Sweds in the industry. Immigrants of today cannot go to work emidiatly. They have to get a permit to stay in the country first. This is the biggest problem with immigration in my country.

The far most important issue in my country is the demographic situation. The smallest towns and citys are already there. SThlm will be there 2020. Many older people and not enough children being born. There is 3 ways to solve that issue.

1. Higher production and efficient (That is high in Sweden. you know that by GNP)
2. Immigration is likely the best way
3. Cuts in transfer systems like the pension. Not a god way in my opinion.

It is quite clear how our government spends its money. Immigration is not an economic problem. Government spending can dived to 4 entries. If we control how our high taxes state use its money immigration is no problem. Per capita in Swedish kronor.

Admin Region Individual Transfer
politics support
Big citys 12400 9700 20700 18100

Stockholm 18500 12100 18100 17200

Regional center 9600 8600 21800 20800

Small region 3700 8300 24400 23200


Immigrants are 14 % of the population. And the Entry of individual support(14%) is what the immigrant’s use of the Swedish budget. Sweden needs immigration to solve future problems.

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The US is inherently multicultural.. we don't have that long of a history, & most of it is rooted in the euro cultures our ancestors were leaving. That is one of the reasons that the Japanese despised us pre-ww2, & many of the mid east cultures do now. They see us as mongrels.. intermixed, intermarried people without a culture of their own. And it irks them even more that we are the major world power.. how can this happen with an inferior, mongrel race?

But the riots were not originally race inspired, it seems to me. They were entitlement inspired. ..or at least this was thrown out as a justification. But then when the EDL types got involved, the minorities decided it would be better to stay home. So here are a bunch of cultural defenders our ready for a fight, but no one wants to challenge them, so like they do in football games, they start drinking & tearing stuff up, & pretty soon are indistinguishable from the earlier rioters.

This is simplistic, & not a complete picture, but i think it does describe some of the riot action.

Most people that identify them self’s with EDF and Swed democrats are pore educated people and people that are unsatisfied with them self. To get their one self a steam at a higher level they need someone to pic or bully on. That’s my opinion. If i could point at one thing that causes this riot it would be poverty both in mind and econmics.

Formating is terrible in this forum. Pardon with the table :(

Good points.. nice to have a discussion about issues & not personal jabs.

Your analysis if the US vs Europe in civility is very interesting. I'm sure it is not universally true, but perhaps it is, generally. I have spent some time in England.. my oldest son was born in Bromley, Kent (suburb in London). I noticed a bit of prejudice against Americans, but nothing unusual.. it is worse in Mexico, imo. My wife went with my daughter on a business trip to Milan last year. She felt a lot of prejudice there.. not from the vendors, who are very eager to please & get some of those dollars, but from the people who do not profit from the tourists.

+1 on the traffic & driving. It is definitely more 'survival of the fittest' when driving in England. I drove around some in Germany, but it was not in the city, so the traffic was not a problem. My wife did not enjoy driving in Milan, but it wasn't too bad in the countryside. I do not like LA traffic.. & drivers are very aggressive in new england.. New York driving reminds me a lot of England. You change lanes & signal at the same time, or they won't let you in. But i do agree that as a whole, the drivers are more polite in the middle of the US. Even in rush hour, in Phoenix i can signal to change lanes & someone will wave me over. Most small town drivers are also very considerate & polite.

I think you might have missed some of our slums.. ours are no better than in Europe.. unless things have changed a lot.. it's been almost 30 years since i was there. But you don't want to be wandering around at night in ours either. I usually wear a cowboy hat if i'm down in inner city phoenix. It doesn't mean anything, but some cowboys carry a firearm, so it might make a criminal think twice before approaching someone in a cowboy hat. Plus it makes me look like John Wayne, & goes with my boots & purse.

We have a similar demographic problem.. the 'rust belt' cities have been in decline for many years. Businesses leave, the cities mostly house slums. Many have revitalized their downtown areas & have succeeded. But many have not. The 'sun belt' states have had a steady growth, with an occasional boom. The housing crash has hit them the hardest, as there was a lot of overbuilding, & prices dropped more in those states. I think there will still be growth, as more baby boomers relocate to sunnier, warmer climates for their retirement. Small towns in the midwest have the same issues as you describe. Young people leave for the cities, since are few jobs. The US is too big to worry about spreading out the population or any management programs like that.

Of course, immigration in the US is easy. You just walk across the border from Mexico, get a job, a house, get some welfare, have a bunch of kids, & save up your money. A great number of our Mexican immigrants, mostly here illegally, come for work, & intend to go back to Mexico when they save up some money.

Actually, my 'welfare' dig is not universally true.. very few go on welfare.. though a lot get food stamps & healthcare. Most of the Mexican immigrants i have known work very hard.. some several jobs.. save their money & are very shrewd with their finances. The problems we get are from the second generation.. they form gangs & cause the trouble. Most of the immigrants are just looking for work. I've known several who have gone back to Mexico.. they take a pile of cash with them & live like kings in Mexico.. a lot of them build a nice ranch in the small town they were from.

In the big pockets in Phoenix, Los Angeles, etc, it is like Mexico. You seldom hear english, the billboards are in spanish, the culture is Mexican. But that is the way things have always been in the US. The big Italian immigration boom in the beginning of the last century had the same issues. Chinese, Irish, Germans, & Scandinavians also tended to live together in ethnic groups. Most blended in to the constantly changing US 'culture'. I'm not worried about immigration.. yes we need to control our borders, enforce the laws, deport criminals, & have a fair system of emigrating, but most Americans do not oppose immigration.

I have a lot bigger problem with the way our welfare system is locking people into these ethnic gulags. It seems to be the same thing happening in England.. the welfare system does not promote integration into the home culture, but instead supports segregation & racial separation. Slums form with racial identities. People lose their motivation to work & make a better life.. they are lulled by the free ride into cultural stagnation & degradation. The old immigrants are horrified at how their values & standards are trampled by the new, entitled generation. Crime, gangland philosophy, & low esteem mark the new society. It is very predictable that they will riot & promote anarchy. But i don't blame the people as much for this problem. I blame the socialist system that has trapped them in a dead end life. I believe in individual freedom & the right to pursue it. The socialists here (and in England, it seems) have stripped these people of self respect & the freedom to make a better life. Yes there are those who escape the system, but it is hard. We should make it easier, & freedom will do that.

I'll take the problems in a free society over a totalitarian one any day.

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I'm sure it is not universally true, but perhaps it is, generally

That’s right I am wildly generalizing. I could have mentioned that guy that try to rob me I Chicago.

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I think you might have missed some of our slums.. ours are no better than in Europe.. unless things have changed a lot.. it's been almost 30 years since i was there. But you don't want to be wandering around at night in ours either. I usually wear a cowboy hat if i'm down in inner city phoenix. It doesn't mean anything, but some cowboys carry a firearm, so it might make a criminal think twice before approaching someone in a cowboy hat. Plus it makes me look like John Wayne, & goes with my boots & purse.

I sure missed your slums. I am avere of them. In England it was hard to miss them.

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We have a similar demographic problem.. the 'rust belt' cities have been in decline for many years. Businesses leave, the cities mostly house slums. Many have revitalized their downtown areas & have succeeded. But many have not. The 'sun belt' states have had a steady growth, with an occasional boom. The housing crash has hit them the hardest, as there was a lot of overbuilding, & prices dropped more in those states. I think there will still be growth, as more baby boomers relocate to sunnier, warmer climates for their retirement. Small towns in the midwest have the same issues as you describe. Young people leave for the cities, since are few jobs. The US is too big to worry about spreading out the population or any management programs like that.

Urbanization is described as a law of nature. In my country it is not necessarily truth. The government spends money to build infrastructure in big cities with every body’s money and that lures people to move to that area. One of the flaws with our system. Elderly people are left behind in smaller regions with the cost of nursing them with municipal money.

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I'll take the problems in a free society over a totalitarian one any day

So do I,me as a person who lives my life with the suppliers demand. No one tells me on Monday morning what I should do this week. I sell my know how to somebody that wants to buy that and have done that for 20 years. I also prefer the society where riots don’t occur and where people are healthy and prosperous. What that society is made of I less important for me as long as I have the freedom of speech and can vote equally to others voters. The result is what matter not the way it’s done.

The founding fathers fled from repressive government and there experience of that made your constitution. If they moved from China today the constitution probably would be similar. If they moved from West Germany or Norway in the 21st century the constitution would look different I think.

About the riots I London I read that 95 % of the people that were judged for the riots where males with a known criminal record and from the back side of there society.

I think Jager is pretty close in that these losers are not afraid of getting busted, the stats they gave out a while ago said that there was very little likelihood of legal action with over 90% of these people
Locally we had Regatta's in summer on the lake in Kelowna, they had riots 3 years in a row, they were forced to pull the plug, Penticton had the same thing happen the next year so they stopped, Vernon was next
These were events that had been going on for decades, there is no poverty or politics, just assholes with a specific agenda of starting a riot
Simple as that
Vancouver was the same, these were not homeless people and by the way the UFC was in town the night before and no one even noticed so it's not violence fans
It's people who get off on destruction and mayhem
Now I think a lot of us like that, I know I like to wreck stuff as much as the next guy, I would love to smash windows and burn a few police cars but there is a matter of right and wrong and the fact that I have some responsibility and respect
Sometimes fantasy and reality should not meet
I'm with Jäger in that they need to let the police take action against these losers, NOT after it's over in court, but busting head's in the street for all the rest of the losers to see and respect, this is all they know, they are children who need a spanking

0007onWR wrote:

I'm with Jäger in that they need to let the police take action against these losers, NOT after it's over in court, but busting head's in the street for all the rest of the losers to see and respect, this is all they know, they are children who need a spanking

Agreed. I lived in Kelowna for 2 of the riots - they were just a group of assholes bent on destruction!

Contrast that with when I worked for a few weeks doing legal land surveying on a small British Columbia Gulf Island in the 80's. One of the locals asked us if we would be there for their yearly pig roast party. It sounded like a lot of fun. There was only a little over 100 people living on the island, and no police presence there. Apparently a few years earlier 2 young men thought that meant they could become assholes at the party. The locals jumped them, 'tied' them up with duct tape, and called the RCMP who came by boat and hauled the 2 away.

I was up on the roof of the theater when one of the riots broke out. Was one of the best vantage points for the Regatta up until that happened; safest spot too, until someone hucked a tear gas can up there.
We also had the Molson Thunderboat races, but that was also taken away due to drunken idiots causing trouble outside the confines of the designated area.

deerHater wrote:

Agreed. I lived in Kelowna for 2 of the riots - they were just a group of assholes bent on destruction!

I was there for the second one - by invitation.

Lots of home runs got hit that night... Judges didn't mess around with them when those went to court either. Maybe we should bring those judges who are still alive out of retirement for the Vancouver jerks.

Somebody told me yesterday that the Crown has yet to proceed with a single charge out of the Vancouver riot. I don't know if that's true or not, but if so... WTF?

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Contrast that with when I worked for a few weeks doing legal land surveying on a small British Columbia Gulf Island in the 80's. One of the locals asked us if we would be there for their yearly pig roast party. It sounded like a lot of fun. There was only a little over 100 people living on the island, and no police presence there.

That would be because, back in the 80's, I'm not sure if even Saltspring had a Detachment. The policing was done by Marine Section out of North Van, Victoria, and Nanaimo. So you never got a "presence", and members ALWAYS showed up by boat... "response time" could be timed by sundial.