Irony in ideology

Subject: Irony in ideology Sun Oct 02, 2011 10:21 am

Have you ever noticed some of the irony in ideologues positions? Some of the basic tenets of the political & philosophical positions people take seem to be filled with conflict & inconsistency. I'll list a few i've found amusing.

Death penalty & abortion.

An outside observer from a distant galaxy might think that people would have similar views, based on the sanctity of life, etc. But those who favor the death penalty are often opposed to abortion, & vice versa. Why would someone think it is ok to kill unborn babies, but not hardened criminals? Or why would someone who is so distressed over an unborn fetus, many of which grow up to become hardened criminals, heartlessly demand a fellow human be put to death?

Teaching evolution & the welfare state.

Most conservatives oppose the teaching of evolution. They also oppose the welfare state.. in general. Most liberals are in favor of teaching evolution, & see it as a scientific fact. Yet they do not want to practice it, but they want society to subsidize non-contributing members. They do not want to let the fittest survive, but take from the fittest, & give to the weak.

World policeman & UN involvement

Liberals like the UN, generally, but not conservatives. Yet liberals do not like our military involvement in other countries, which the UN does a lot. A lot of conservatives would like us to abandon the UN & stop funding it, yet want our military meddling in every corner of the world.

These are a few apparent contradictions & ironic beliefs of some.. any others you can think of?

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Subject: Re: Irony in ideology Sun Oct 02, 2011 8:15 pm

Good points except, for me,... the evolution/economy comment.
The economy is man's method.
Evolution is nature's method.
Nature is true.
Man is searching for truth.Nature will , eventually, show us the truth...if it hasn't already.

Admin

rydnseek wrote:: But those who favor the death penalty are often opposed to abortion... Most conservatives oppose the teaching of evolution.

I think you're using an overly-broad brush there.

Capital punishment is a legal sanction imposed on the worst criminals, after a trial by a jury of their peers. It is almost exclusively a penalty for particularly brutal murders, imposed on adults. Abortion also ends a human life, but as a penalty/outcome for simply existing, not for criminally ending the life of others. You may or may not agree that a fetus is ever a human up to the moment of actual birth, but it is not inconsistent to support capital punishment as a sanction for brutal murders while opposing abortion as killing the innocent if you believe a fetus is already a human being.

I certainly don't agree that most conservatives oppose the teaching of evolution - was there a poll or something? I can't see how you can truly be a conservative i.e. minimal government involvement in how we live our lives, what we teach our kids, etc, and yet be in favour of government restricting what can and can't be taught. I'm pretty conservative, certainly fiscally and possibly social as well. I can't imagine NOT teaching evolution. How do we expect to raise children to be able to think intelligently for themselves, if we insist that they only be taught the flavour of the day? If you can justify prohibiting schools from putting evolution in front of kids, then it follows you can also justify prohibiting schools from putting information on the world's religions in front of them.

Quote :: A lot of conservatives would like us to abandon the UN & stop funding it, yet want our military meddling in every corner of the world.

The problem with the UN these days is that UN members are giving NGOs a validity that they never should have. Canada funds Wendy Cukier to go to the UN as an NGO, to press the UN into accepting "arms control" legislation that is all about her version of whether or not individuals should own firearms and not about addressing illegitimate trafficking in military weapons. Or Maurice Strong from Power Corp - Chairman Moe - gives us the Kyoto Accord (after Power Corp has bought up dozens of dirty coal mines in China and other countries unaffected by Kyoto). Then country's turn around and say "Jeez, we have to live by these rules because we're a member of the UN and the UN adopted them". What utter tripe, regardless of the subject matter being pushed by an NGO - if they managed to push through a resolution that every country had to have an official religion and prayers at the start of each work/school day, do you think these same leaders would be saying they had no choice? Not likely.

What happens is a lot of government's use the UN for an excuse to do things they know would get them turfed out of office if they claimed authorship. It's a back door that allows them to get on board with something, while avoiding accountability. And the only way that manages to work for them, is people blame the UN instead of the leaders they elected. Proving that you can mislead most of the people most of the time, I suppose.

The UN desperately needs an overhaul for the same reasons our government bureaucracies desperately need an overhaul: those bureaucrats piss away the money they get with absolutely no accountability. And in particular, no personal accountability. Anybody ever think for a minute that there are actually people with faces behind the choices of where the TARP money went, how it got spent after receipt, the UN's oil for food scandal, etc? Our governments or the UN, they just milk whatever comes along for all it's worth, and then move along. And instead of pushing for identity and accountability, many of us default to "hate the UN" and "hate government". Both do a lot of good, but we prefer to focus on the scandalous, wasteful, and oppressive and demand that the baby be thrown out with the bathwater.

As for "meddling" in other parts of the world... one person's meddling is another's national defense. If Clinton had taken out bin Ladin when he had the chance, would that have been foreign meddling? Would 9/11 still have occurred, or would national defense have been served?

Admin

motokid wrote:: “If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition and then admit that we just don't want to do it.”
― Stephen Colbert

Ah yes, Stephen Colbert. Along with Jon Stewart, the brain trust that the socialists and statists get their intellectual arguments from and stereotyping of right wing/conservatives. And amazingly, Colbert apparently styles himself as a Roman Catholic.

Where do we start with poor, confused Stephen and his enthusiastic followers?

This nation doesn't help the poor? Indeed? I guess we don't count welfare, Medicare, Medicaid, food stamps, housing for the poor, the lowest 47% of income earners paying no income tax while being the recipients of entitlement spending on the poor, the Low Income Home Energy Assistance Program, and how many other billions of dollars worth of spending each year on the "poor"? Does anyone seriously believe that Colbert and his script writers are totally unaware of the hundreds of billions of dollars this nation spends on the "poor" each year to help them?

Colbert's problem isn't that this country doesn't help the poor. His problem as a socialist is that we don't give them EVERYTHING. And in his mind, if we don't give them EVERYTHING - then we don't help them at all.

Colbert's second problem is that, if you're going to comment on Jesus and the Bible, it would probably be a good idea if you actually read what they said first. Jesus never said that the nation was supposed to care for the poor. He said that INDIVIDUAL CHRISTIANS had a duty to help the poor.

And Jesus and the bible had a few words for "the poor" along with Stephen Colbert and his admirers as well:
For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;
Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:
Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an example unto you to follow us.
For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies.
Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.

By the way, how poor are the "poor" that Colbert is having fits of angst over?

Irony in ideology Bg2064chart1

So a third own two or more cars and trucks. Which would be one more four wheeled vehicle than I own.

Only one in 70 is homeless. 90% live in houses or apartments and the average poor American has more living space than the average non-poor European.

But apparently, America does not look after the poor, because only 30% of the poor own two or more cars or trucks. We need to shoot for 75% of the poor owning two or more vehicles in order to obtain social justice.

Subject: Re: Irony in ideology Sat Nov 19, 2011 2:24 pm

There is too much irony in this world.. in the political arena, it becomes hypocrisy, and if it didn't cost us so much, it could be funny.

A fool and his money are soon elected.
Will Rogers

There is a consistent inconsistency by those who want us to be militarily involved in every part of the world. World peace & stability is the goal, but how is that working out for us?

So i find it ironic that our hawkish proponents who have kept us involved militarily in the world justify the massive expense by saying it makes the world safer, & our borders more secure. Yet the world is in more turmoil today except for the brief period of WW2. I think the military expense is a hollow justification, like Obama saying we would have gone into a depression if not for his stimulus.

Of course, overly broad brushes are necessary to illustrate irony.

I still see it in the evolution/ welfare state dichotomy. How can an atheistic leftist have compassion for the poor & unfortunate? They should, if they are consistent with their philosophy, wish to see the herd thinned. But the only herd they are interested in thinning is the conservatives! They need (and use) the poor for votes to defeat their deist opponents.

"Under capitalism man exploits man; under socialism the reverse is true."
Polish Proverb

Anyone see any inconsistencies in the socialism vs capitalism debate? I think this is America's crossroad.. we must decide whether to become a full, euro nanny state, or return to free market principles. The blend we have been trying for the last few decades has not worked. I find it a bit ironic when a supposed 'conservative' wants more govt involvement. ..like we don't already have enough.

But the left wins for the most irony. They want more.. more govt. More services. More stuff. More freedom. More money. More opportunity. Of course none of these go together or have even come close in socialistic countries.. except the more govt part. The only thing really shared by the people is poverty. The ruling elite do all right, but not the rest of us.

Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.
Winston Churchill

Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.
Groucho Marx

One way to make sure crime doesn't pay would be to let the government run it.
Ronald Reagan

Subject: Re: Irony in ideology Sat Nov 19, 2011 2:41 pm

motokid wrote:

I tend to agree with steven colbert on this. It is ironic that those who want a 'christian' nation don't seem to want a welfare state, or have great liberal angst over the less fortunate. Of course, how does this explain colbert's position of 'caring for the poor'? I don't think the left are that compassionate toward the poor, but just want to be left alone.. not bothered by the poor. Let the govt. take care of them.

A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul.
George Bernard Shaw

Personally, i don't want a 'christian' nation. Nor do i want an atheistic one. I prefer the one founded on personal freedoms & liberties, with no preference given to philosophical ideologies.

Ironically, the govt. seems to favor the atheistic philosophy. They sound religious, but act atheistically, except for the massive welfare state & entitlements, which don't seem to have any basis in a philosophy, except for the popular 'grab-it-while-you-can-before-it-is-gone,' which is the state religion, as far as i can tell.

It was impossible to get a conversation going, everybody was talking too much.
Yogi Berra

Subject: Re: Irony in ideology Sat Nov 26, 2011 2:56 am

The more I drink, the more I think the "irony" of your inquiry...isn't irony at all.
Rather, it is the confusion, brought on by ideology, that leaves us frustrated with how others think.
I think, therefore, I am. I do not think because I am left or right. Good or bad. I think, regardless, like all humans.
We argue good or bad, right or wrong from what we know...hopefully as best as we can.

Our ideologies attempt to describe, in black and white, what it is we think we understand.
There is no group, that completely understands what any, one person, thought...ever.
Yet, it's common to see one person lead a group.

There seems to be a desperate attempt to draw lines...especially lines of understanding.

You are either with us or against us...no middle ground...no grey area...all or nothing.

The grey area is where we live and survive.

Yet, political arguments demand we choose black or white, left or right...almost as if its the root of our frustrations to begin with. No wonder the arguments are endless.
There are those whom just want a bandwagon to jump on, just so they are not left behind.
There are those trying to lead the bandwagon to better places.
Those who want to break patterns. And those who want to form them.

This planet has nurtured humans for a long time...mothered , if you will.
Listen to your mother...even if you feel your understanding is beyond hers...it is just your disease of the child confusing you...stop fighting with your brothers and sisters and get this mess cleaned up! Mother will let you know when you do well...and leave no doubt when you do not.