Do Lithium Ion batteries hold up and start bike in 40f?

Just wondering if anybody has extended experience with a Lion battery?

I have had one on my WRR for more than five years, and I have never had any problems.

Used it a couple of times in 40F weather, and no problems there either.

I'm never going back to lead-acid batteries.

Good to hear, what brand have you used?

The problem is that their capacity is 1/3 of a lead acid battery.
Often its advicable to buy one with higher capacity than the manufactor recommends, as some are barely adequate.
They usually have the same physical size.

I have a Scorpion on my WRR, and a Battery Tender on my CBR; both are excellent.

One caveat about lithium batteries though: they do not handle parasitic drains well, so make sure you do not install anything on the WRR that would draw power when the ignition is off.

Jens Eskildsen wrote:

The problem is that their capacity is 1/3 of a lead acid battery.
Often its advicable to buy one with higher capacity than the manufactor recommends, as some are barely adequate.
They usually have the same physical size.

Where did you hear about their capacity being 1/3 of that of a lead-acid battery? Both my lithium batteries have slightly higher Ah specs than the lead-acid batteries they replaced, and both of them are significantly smaller in size; in fact, all lithium batteries come with foam pads to make up for the space freed up by the small size of the batteries.

And of course, their weight is just laughable; once you hold one in your hand, you can never go back.

johnkol wrote:

I have a Scorpion on my WRR, and a Battery Tender on my CBR; both are excellent.

One caveat about lithium batteries though: they do not handle parasitic drains well, so make sure you do not install anything on the WRR that would draw power when the ignition is off.

Curious how that is if the Amp/hr spec is superior? Also, Do you know at what temp they fall flat compared to lead/acid? Thanks for that Scorpion endorsement.

Nicad wrote:

Curious how that is if the Amp/hr spec is superior? Also, Do you know at what temp they fall flat compared to lead/acid? Thanks for that Scorpion endorsement.

It has to do with the chemistry of Lithium batteries: they are very good at providing large amounts of current fast, but not very good at providing small amounts over a long period of time.

For the WRR this is not a problem because our bikes do not have a parasitic draw. But on my CBR for example, the clock drained the battery in about three months, and according to the manufacturer the battery was dead. Indeed, the charger could not even detect the battery, but there is a way around that: you need a dumb charger to provide enough current to the depleted cells to revive them, and then the smart charger can take over. Although the battery has not appeared to have suffered, this is definitely a lesson learned.

I have been down to 34F, and the battery still had no problem starting the bike. In my opinion, the low temperature problem of lithium batteries that everyone mentions does not really apply to motorbikes: if it's so cold that the battery has a hard time starting the bike, then it is too cold to ride the bike.

Good explanation. I'd like one ....when I get my WR. Thanks

johnkol wrote:

Where did you hear about their capacity being 1/3 of that of a lead-acid battery? Both my lithium batteries have slightly higher Ah specs than the lead-acid batteries they replaced, and both of them are significantly smaller in size; in fact, all lithium batteries come with foam pads to make up for the space freed up by the small size of the batteries.

And of course, their weight is just laughable; once you hold one in your hand, you can never go back.

I didnt "hear it" I know it. Sorry, not trying to be an arse.
The fanufactors started to market the lithium batteris in Pb eq capacity. Which is short for "lead equavalent"
Their logic beeing as the lithium batteries (under the most optimal conditions) have the same CCA as a lead acid battery, with the lithium beeing 1/3 the size in capacity. So it was a way for them to compare the CCA of the lithium, to a lead based battery. They just "forgot" the capacity part.

You have around the same starting capacity (in warm weather) but have around 1/3 to 1/2 the capacity, thats why its so light. A lead based battery at 1/3 the capacity would also feel vert light, but would lack the cranking amps to start the bike.
This means you have less reserve for extended cranking, for charging stuff of the bike, and thats why a parasitic draw will drain a lithium battery way faster than a lead one. Its got nothing to do with chemistry, its the small capacity. Most button cell batteries are made with lithium. They drive watches, smokedetectors, clocks ect for years.

Look on your battery, or at the manufactos website. They will sometimes list how many Wh it is. But they generally try to hide the details, so people like you and others will buy the product.

I have a lithium in my wr450f, I bought it knowing the above. Just trying to put some facts on the table, so people have the right knowledge do decide whats best for them, and their use. There's 100s of brands, some good, some bad. Som have both cheap models and high end models aswell.

I had a look, with some of the most modern lithiumbatteries:
https://antigravitybatteries.com/products/starter-batteries/restart-oem/atz7-rs/

Its a replacement for our battery, its real capacity is 3,3Ah, so about 50% capacity of the original. This is the highest i could find. Most are in the 2,5Ah range.

This one is listed at 28,8Wh: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/273550487655 Thats only 2,4Ah actual capacity.

With all due respect, unless you work as an engineer in the battery development industry, you don't *know*; you simply read some articles and you *think* you understand.

The "capacity" of a lithium battery that you use to make your argument (the 1C discharge rate) is fine for charging cell phones and other electronic gadgets, but it is a flawed metric for motorcycle or car batteries: we use our batteries for cranking the motor, and for the WRR that's probably around 20-30A, not the 3A that the 1C rate implies.

Note also that Yuasa rates the capacity of their batteries based on a 10 hour discharge (i.e. a C/10 rate), which gives an artificially elevated Ah rating; if they were to use the high discharge rates starters need, the capacity would drop considerably. Take the YTZ7S that the WRR uses as an example, rated at 6Ah for a 10 hour discharge: assuming the starter draws 25A, that discharge current reduces the capacity to 2.36 Ah -- a far cry from the 6Ah Yuasa states.

So the "Pb Eq" rating for lithium batteries is closer to real world applications in our vehicles than the 1C discharge rate method of calculating capacities.

As I said before, the lithium battery in my WRR has performed admirably for more than five years, although I have never had to stress it. However, my CBR almost left me stranded one time when it refused to start; I kept cranking for a long time (around three minutes?) and the lithium battery never wavered.

I soldered batteries myself to use for RC stuff, where I competed, so I feel i have the background to talk from my own experiences. This goes back to when Nimh emerged in the early 90's, and when the first lithiumbatteries had no curcuit protection, which we made ourselves. I've got no problem if you feel thats not good enough for you.

I never said they dont work, just that you need to be aware of "shortcomings" / disadvantages. As I said, I have one for myself for a different bike. I bet you can find lots of people with fay more than 5 years on a lead battery, me included.


If you want to get technical, the dischargerate of lithiumbatteries doesnt use the same standard as the lead ones, so once again they try to make the product look better than it is. The dischargerate of lead batteries has been the industrial standard for many years. As with anything, a higher draw will result in lower capacity, and less cranking. This can been seen with lithium aswell, when some of them wont even crank in low temperatures, before theyre warmed up.

Thers more to cranking, on a dualsport its nice to have some "reserve" for if you run with exccessive loads like heated gear and extra lights where the charging system might not cut it a low revs.
Or just when you need to charge stuff from the bike during the night ect, which I like to do.

Jens Eskildsen wrote:

If you want to get technical, the dischargerate of lithiumbatteries doesnt use the same standard as the lead ones, so once again they try to make the product look better than it is.

At least the Lithium battery manufacturers (as you showed) are honest enough to provide the Ah rating that corresponds to an industry-standard 1C discharge rate. What do Lead-Acid manufacturers (like Yuasa) do? Provide the Ah rating corresponding to a C/10 discharge rate, which is absurd for a motorcycle battery. Had they used the 1C discharge rate, the 6 Ah capacity they quote for the YTZ7S used in the WRR would become 3.4 Ah. So who is trying to oversell their product with bogus specs?

Although a higher current draw reduces the capacity rating of Lead-Acid batteries, it does not significantly reduce that of Lithium batteries because their discharge rates are fairly flat (the ones for Lead-Acid follow a power-law distribution). The low temperature sensitivity of Lithium batteries is a separate phenomenon associated with their chemistry, not the current draw, and for motorcycles it is a moot point: if it is so cold that your lithium battery has trouble starting the bike, then it is too cold to ride.

If one needs a battery to charge their gadgets, then a Lithium power bank is an ideal choice: it can charge all your electronics, it can jump-start your bike, and it weighs less than a kickstarter.

The standard was a standard decades before lihiumbatteries ermerged.  

The SAE/DIN CCA standard test(s) isnt followed by lithiummanufactors, because many wont even crank at -18 degrees.  
Its called Cold cranking Amps, yet they provide a number that isnt tested to the CCA standard test. Thats just plain misinformation.

So again, everybody seems to highlight the stuff that makes their product look great, and try to hide or even misimform about the rest.

Again, in my original post, I wrote the lithiums have way less capacity as a reply to you, because you stated that yours have way more, which just isnt true.
And it all took of from there where you made up scenarios to make your batteries look better. Everything I wrote is comparing lead to lithium under the same standards which has been used for decades.
Sure you can make up examples where a lithium works better, like cranking fully charged under the most optimum conditions, but that's is seldom where you need it, and a lead battery will also start the bike here.

The problem is when conditions is not optimal, with a charging system thats not working properly, starting the bike dead cold in freezing temps, leaving the lights on, or just be able to keep a bike with a small draw from the clocks/aftermarked tracker ect, start after sitting still for a few weeks.


Im not trying to win an argument in a foreign language on the internet.
Im trying to provide some information so people have all the facts straight. And not just "my lithium have more capacity than lead batteries"

But atleast the people inhere should have a lot of information, to make a proper decision about whitch battery to get.
Good day.

This thread took off because you made a factually erroneous statement that lithium batteries have 1/3 the capacity of an equivalent Lead-Acid battery, and I set the record straight that if one were to use the same metric on both a Lead-Acid and a Lithium battery, the capacities are essentially the same. Moreover, if both batteries are to be used for their primary purpose of cranking the motor, then Lithium batteries have a higher capacity that Lead-Acid ones.

I never made a claim that the lithium batteries I use have "way more" capacity; I stated that they have "slightly higher capacity specs" than the Lead-Acid batteries they replaced, and this is an absolutely true statement.

You may claim that under different usage conditions one battery is better than another, but as long as you don't misrepresent facts, I have no interest in contradicting you.

For the record, I am not involved with any battery manufacturer, I have no financial interest in any battery business, and have always spent my own money to buy the batteries that I am using; I therefore do not consider the batteries I use as *my* batteries, and feel no compulsion to defend them.

I had one in my WRR (Shorai) for about 5 years and just recently replaced it since I was having some issues with the starter engaging - later found out that was a bad starter relay. However, my rule for batteries is that once they are over 4 years old you are living on borrowed time. Granted most of this is based on the older lead acid batteries so I am not sure if it translates well to Lithium Ion batteries.

As far as you question about temperature impact on Li battery performance I have not seen much of an issue at 40F but when things get down around 30F or 20F they do start to act finicky. Normally at those lower temps the battery barely cranks the bike. However as you try to crank more it becomes more energetic. I have been told that the Lithium Ion chemistry needs to be 'woken' up on cold mornings and usually that is best done with some sort of draw on the battery. From my experience this seems to make sense since in temps say below 30F the bike with barely crank on the first couple of hits but after that it cranks much more easily.

johnkol wrote:

This thread took off because you made a factually erroneous statement that lithium batteries have 1/3 the capacity of an equivalent Lead-Acid battery, and I set the record straight that if one were to use the same metric on both a Lead-Acid and a Lithium battery, the capacities are essentially the same.

You said " Both my lithium batteries have slightly higher Ah specs than the lead-acid batteries they replaced"

I still find it hard to figure out how you know this, when the opposite is provided from the manufator. Is I've said many times, theres industrial standards to test this capacity. No lithium battery marketed to replaces our stock battery will provide the same capacity in the same test, or even come close. Thats a fact. Its also a fact that no manufactor market they batteries as actually having close to this actual capacity.

When your claims exceeds what the manufactors can vouch for, and only in the favor of the lithiumbatteries, im getting sceptical of how much you really know.

There are other places the lihium will do just fine, like I said cranking under optimum (for the lithium) conditions, but thats just like testing the mpg of a car going downhill......
And again, the lead battery will still do just fine in this test. Your experience about cranking for 3 minutes, at a 25Ah load, so would the lead battery, and more to it, do the math based on your own numbers, so you just proved yourself wrong..

By the way, there's specs for the startermotor in the manual, 25A is yet another thing you assumed wrong. Its of more than 1/3 aswell, just like the capacity

You also made up a disharge curve for a battery, and used that as a fact. Or are you telling me you know how that specific battery behaves at a 25Ah load? The 25Ah load was also guesswork, so 2 times guesswork equals a fact? got it. You still failed to provide any information regarding how the corresponding lithium would behave at a 25A load.... Whats the capacity of your batteries at 10 celsius? How about 5? How about -18 where all other batteries are meassure for cold cranking amps.

Regarding the discharge rate: Since theres no CCA rating provided from any of the manufactors of lithiumbatteris I've ever seen, because they simply cannot pass this test how can you state as a fact that yours does better? It wont even turn the starter motor a single revolution at this temperature for christ sake! Pretty relevant in a thread about the cold starting capabilities of lithium batteries, huh?

Antigravity just say "150 cranking amps" and just left out the "cold" part. Theres is no industry standard for this, they just made that up themselves. Just about no ordinary consumer would notice the difference, and no leadacid battery is tested in "warm" conditions. So how can you state that yours is specd' better when you dont know the specs of a lead battery under the same conditions, or know at which temperature this figure comes from?

They marked their product with that 150 number, meassured under optimum condutions, and compare it to fx a yuasa lead battery tested to 130CCA at -18 degrees celcius in 30 seconds according to the standard. Hence my post about the lithium manufactors beeing misleading. I guess they fooled you too, or are you trying to tell me you knew that several years ago when you bought your batteries?

I showed you a link to a lithiumbattery, marketed for our bikes, with just about 1/3 the actual capacity to back up my claim.? Thats all themanufactor would vould for. Theres plenty where that came from, just have a search for "wr250r lithium battery" and look at the actual capacity, not Pb eq capacity (which again, is something they made up, they determined this rating themselves). Again, that's missleading to me, somehow not you.

I agree not every single lithium battery out there (now) only have 1/3 capacity. But the majority is really close, especially the no-name brands. The better ones are stepping up, but started doing so in recent years, adding a higher rating, but still a good bit from the lead one. (antigravity has about 50%, which is still significant less, and way closer to 1/3 than " slightly higher Ah specs"which you claimed.

The point was that people need to know they what they are sacrificing for the weight savings, which most people dont realise, and it seems like you didnt know all of it aswell. An "up to" 75% weight loss (claimed, no exact comparisons is made), for around 50% capacity (stated by the manufactor themselves), and less ability to start the colder it gets. If that and the higher pricetag is not an issue, lithium might be a thing for a person.

The room below this post is reserved so you can have the final word to repeat your made up examples and numbers. Im done, good day, eventhough we disagree,

Leave it to Ryan at Fort Nine to come up with some simple tests.

Based on that last test it sure seems that the LiFeO batteries do not store as much energy as their ratings suggest

https://youtu.be/3ywopGAXP-I

rsteiger wrote:

Leave it to Ryan at Fort Nine to come up with some simple tests.

His "real-world" test is to discharge the batteries with 8.3A? That is, something on the bike is drawing (8.3A)x(12V)=99.6W? That sounds like a real world test to you?

johnkol wrote:

rsteiger wrote:

Leave it to Ryan at Fort Nine to come up with some simple tests.

His "real-world" test is to discharge the batteries with 8.3A? That is, something on the bike is drawing (8.3A)x(12V)=99.6W? That sounds like a real world test to you?

It certainly does measure the amount of energy that a battery stores.. so yes it is a real world test.

Most bike loads, lights, fuel pump, radiator fan easily exceed 100W so I would stay he was in the ball park.

I guess the other way you could do it is to simulate a failure where you leave the headlight on with the bike switched off - that is 55W I believe so roughly half the draw he was using.

I would be willing to wager a beer that the results relative to how fast each battery is depleted would be the same.