2008 won’t idle, tried a bunch, weird issues

johnkol wrote:

I use an aftermarket radiator cap that is also rated for 1.8 bar, so that's not a concern. Irrespective of the coolant level, there shouldn't be any steam coming through the cap, so a check is in order to verify that the cap O-ring and the radiator mating surface are making good contact.

The coolant overflow tube starts just below the radiator cap, crosses over the top of the frame, and goes into the coolant reservoir. There should be small hose clamps securing the overflow tube, are these there? If yes, and you still have a leak, then the overflow tube may have become brittle, so try a new one.

None of the above implies you have blown the head gasket, so I don't think you're missing anything.

Yes all there, the clear hose isn’t the problem it’s the actual black overflow that’s connected to the cap of the overflow that’s leaking.

Yes, the black tube is what I'm talking about too: it may have lost its elasticity, so try a new one. Also, check the radiator nipple itself to make sure it hasn't cracked.

johnkol wrote:

Yes, the black tube is what I'm talking about too: it may have lost its elasticity, so try a new one. Also, check the radiator nipple itself to make sure it hasn't cracked.

Maybe leaking wasn’t a good term, it’s actively venting out the end, just a few steady drops after bike was up to temp.

Flynavy wrote:

Maybe leaking wasn’t a good term, it’s actively venting out the end, just a few steady drops after bike was up to temp.

When you say "out the end" you mean the radiator side of the overflow tube or the reservoir side? The thing is, coolant in the overflow tube is not under pressure, so even if there are just a few drops coming out, there's something wrong. Check to make sure there are no obstructions in the entire path of the overflow coolant; also check that the water level in the radiator itself is up to the rim where the cap seals it.

johnkol wrote:

Flynavy wrote:

Maybe leaking wasn’t a good term, it’s actively venting out the end, just a few steady drops after bike was up to temp.

When you say "out the end" you mean the radiator side of the overflow tube or the reservoir side? The thing is, coolant in the overflow tube is not under pressure, so even if there are just a few drops coming out, there's something wrong. Check to make sure there are no obstructions in the entire path of the overflow coolant; also check that the water level in the radiator itself is up to the rim where the cap seals it.

Reservoir side, see picture.  Can you explain why that might be? If cap isn’t holding pressure (steam) then this shouldn’t vent right? It’s below top line though.

Also… every time I think the coolant scare is resolved I see some liquid. Am I lying to myself at this point? Is it even possible for such a small amount to seep out like this?

Flynavy wrote:

There's something wrong there: the clear tube is the breather hose of the coolant reservoir, and should be routed downwards following the frame. Take a look at your other WRR to see the correct routing.

The only explanation I have for the leak is that the overflow tubing is blocked somehow.

Flynavy wrote:

Also… every time I think the coolant scare is resolved I see some liquid.  Am I lying to myself at this point? Is it even possible for such a small amount to seep out like this?

Is that liquid there after a 5 minute run, or after a 2 hour run? If the latter, then I wouldn't be concerned that much, just monitor it. If the former though, then take it on a longer ride and see whether the leak gets worse.

johnkol wrote:

Flynavy wrote:

Also… every time I think the coolant scare is resolved I see some liquid.  Am I lying to myself at this point? Is it even possible for such a small amount to seep out like this?

Is that liquid there after a 5 minute run, or after a 2 hour run? If the latter, then I wouldn't be concerned that much, just monitor it. If the former though, then take it on a longer ride and see whether the leak gets worse.

I think we installed tubes wrong, I see what you’re saying.  And it makes sense, the clear tube seems way too long to be attached to overfill.

As far as leak… I don’t know.  I’m at a loss.  I just went around the block for 1-2 miles through what I could RPM wise.  I don’t see active leaking.  I can obviously tell where “wetness” was since it has a sheen.  I can mash paper towel against it and obviously see an imprint on it.  But as far as a solid active drop of coolant to be seen, I don’t see one.  Almost seems like it’s more prevalent on an initial cold start.

I’ve been looking at the old head and where a leak could even originate and it’s not making sense.  That part of the gasket doesn’t even appear to be butt up against a cooling channel.

So you had connected the clear tube to the radiator overflow? Where was the black tube connected then?

Are there still any leaks with the correct connections?

The only way to know whether the head gasket leak is concerning or not is to go on a long ride.

johnkol wrote:

So you had connected the clear tube to the radiator overflow? Where was the black tube connected then?

Are there still any leaks with the correct connections?

The only way to know whether the head gasket leak is concerning or not is to go on a long ride.

Black was just free floating, I corrected it.

I just drained radiator.  Well first I had to figure out why it wasn’t draining… the little drain channel didn’t exist.  It was a chunk of corrosion.  Scraped it away and revealed the passage.

Took valve cover off again, wow I’m getting fast at this unfortunately! Also tightened the two Allen head bolts (should have last time, doh!).  We’ll see if it matters.  Used distilled water for this test run.

I’ll tear it down if I have to but I’m dreading it.

Flynavy wrote:

I just drained radiator.  Well first I had to figure out why it wasn’t draining… the little drain channel didn’t exist.  It was a chunk of corrosion.

Yikes! Of course one has to wonder why that particular channel would corrode and not other coolant passages.

Flynavy wrote:

I’ll tear it down if I have to but I’m dreading it.

I don't see why you would have to tear it down, at most the head gasket is blown and you have to change it.

johnkol wrote:

Flynavy wrote:

I just drained radiator.  Well first I had to figure out why it wasn’t draining… the little drain channel didn’t exist.  It was a chunk of corrosion.

Yikes! Of course one has to wonder why that particular channel would corrode and not other coolant passages.

Flynavy wrote:

I’ll tear it down if I have to but I’m dreading it.

I don't see why you would have to tear it down, at most the head gasket is blown and you have to change it.

To me that’s tearing it down haha.  

I just don’t know, I’m at my wits end on this one.  I don’t want to list the bike unless it’s solid.  

Half these “issues” I wouldn’t even know about unless I was down there with a flash light checking every inch of gasket.  

A local friend suggested AC delco radiator tabs, might be worth a shot?  I can press paper towel against gasket and see a super light line of some form of liquid or oil.  I know I’m over thinking this.

Flynavy wrote:

A local friend suggested AC delco radiator tabs, might be worth a shot?  I can press paper towel against gasket and see a super light line of some form of liquid or oil.

I would advise against any kind of sealing agent; at best it will just mask the underlying problem, at worst it could block a passage that is already restricted by corrosion.

Given that you are now using distilled water as coolant, I would think that it would be relatively easy to tell whether the liquid leaking out of the gasket is water or oil?

johnkol wrote:

Flynavy wrote:

A local friend suggested AC delco radiator tabs, might be worth a shot?  I can press paper towel against gasket and see a super light line of some form of liquid or oil.

I would advise against any kind of sealing agent; at best it will just mask the underlying problem, at worst it could block a passage that is already restricted by corrosion.

Given that you are now using distilled water as coolant, I would think that it would be relatively easy to tell whether the liquid leaking out of the gasket is water or oil?

You’re gonna love this and probably not be surprised.  Looking through old photos it dawned on me that I never prepared my new used head.  Just left old material on it, see the photo.  And here I am wondering why it’s leaking.

That with the unsure aspect of torques led me to rip her apart.

Maybe I’m paranoid but the cam journals look worn? Nothing to feel with my nails… and smells weird.  I ran T4 diesel oil for all these little test runs, maybe it has a distinct smell?

Anyways I digress, someone is sending me an OEM head gasket.  I’m doing things right.

Lastly, any reason to replace base gasket since it kind of broke the seal when I removed the jug?

Flynavy wrote:

Maybe I’m paranoid but the cam journals look worn? Nothing to feel with my nails… and smells weird.  I ran T4 diesel oil for all these little test runs, maybe it has a distinct smell?

You didn't attach a picture of the cam journals, but if you cannot feel the scuffs I wouldn't worry about it. When you say T4, you mean Shell Rotella? That's perfectly fine (it actually meets JASO MA specs), I used to use it myself, can't remember a weird smell, so could this possibly be the burnt coolant?

Flynavy wrote:

Lastly, any reason to replace base gasket since it kind of broke the seal when I removed the jug?

Did the gasket lift high enough to potentially tear it? If not, then I wouldn't change it. If you're not sure... then I think it would be better to change it proactively given that you have already partially disassemble it, rather than discovering that there is a leak after you have already put everything back together.

johnkol wrote:

Flynavy wrote:

Maybe I’m paranoid but the cam journals look worn? Nothing to feel with my nails… and smells weird.  I ran T4 diesel oil for all these little test runs, maybe it has a distinct smell?

You didn't attach a picture of the cam journals, but if you cannot feel the scuffs I wouldn't worry about it. When you say T4, you mean Shell Rotella? That's perfectly fine (it actually meets JASO MA specs), I used to use it myself, can't remember a weird smell, so could this possibly be the burnt coolant?

Flynavy wrote:

Lastly, any reason to replace base gasket since it kind of broke the seal when I removed the jug?

Did the gasket lift high enough to potentially tear it? If not, then I wouldn't change it. If you're not sure... then I think it would be better to change it proactively given that you have already partially disassemble it, rather than discovering that there is a leak after you have already put everything back together.

I’ll probably replace it then.  I hate getting the piston back in, but I’ve made it this far.

I also noticed what appeared to be a few drops of water come out the AIS inlet when tearing apart unless my eyes deceived me.  Any way water could get in there? For what it’s worth I was using water for coolant for short testing purposes.

Flynavy wrote:

I also noticed what appeared to be a few drops of water come out the AIS inlet when tearing apart unless my eyes deceived me.  Any way water could get in there?

If coolant/water was leaking out of the head gasket, then it is conceivable that it made its way to the AIS. Make a note to check this once everything is back together with the new head gasket.

johnkol wrote:

Flynavy wrote:

I also noticed what appeared to be a few drops of water come out the AIS inlet when tearing apart unless my eyes deceived me.  Any way water could get in there?

If coolant/water was leaking out of the head gasket, then it is conceivable that it made its way to the AIS. Make a note to check this once everything is back together with the new head gasket.

Got another one for ya you’ll love..

Chain tensioner.  I couldn’t get it to wind up.  So here’s what I did, I literally pushed it into the hole against the chain guide and then threaded one bolt.  I then slowly tightened bolt, so as I did that, chain slowly gained tension.  No skipped timing.

So why do we use these style tensioners that deploy? I’m not understanding the design I guess? If it extends 2 inches… what difference does it make pushing it slowly against guide or violently deploying it?

Flynavy wrote:

So why do we use these style tensioners that deploy? I’m not understanding the design I guess? If it extends 2 inches… what difference does it make pushing it slowly against guide or violently deploying it?

Because it may not need to extend 2 inches. When you install the tensioner in its compressed form and then release it, the tension of the chain will only allow it to extend enough to take up the chain slack; if you install it fully extended, then something has to give, and I'm not sure what will give first.

johnkol wrote:

Flynavy wrote:

So why do we use these style tensioners that deploy? I’m not understanding the design I guess? If it extends 2 inches… what difference does it make pushing it slowly against guide or violently deploying it?

Because it may not need to extend 2 inches. When you install the tensioner in its compressed form and then release it, the tension of the chain will only allow it to extend enough to take up the chain slack; if you install it fully extended, then something has to give, and I'm not sure what will give first.

Ok well that makes sense… so I’ve been lucky but there’s a potential for disaster it sounds like.  What do you recommend since 08 tensioners have known to have issues? Order that popular manual one for 45 bucks?

I wouldn't use a manual tensioner, I believe they're fundamentally flawed.

My WRR is an 08, I have taken the tensioner out, it is indeed very difficult to retract the rod, but it is doable; remember that you have to rotate the tensioner housing while pressing the rod (see Page 5-10), it will not budge without rotating.

johnkol wrote:

I wouldn't use a manual tensioner, I believe they're fundamentally flawed.

My WRR is an 08, I have taken the tensioner out, it is indeed very difficult to retract the rod, but it is doable; remember that you have to rotate the tensioner housing while pressing the rod (see Page 5-10), it will not budge without rotating.

You wanna guess why I’m not able to wind the tensioner? This is what I just discovered.

Flynavy wrote:

You wanna guess why I’m not able to wind the tensioner? This is what I just discovered.

Did it break just now, or do you suspect it has been broken for a while?

At this point you have to keep on going, but boy, this bike looks like a bottomless pit of frustration.

johnkol wrote:

Flynavy wrote:

You wanna guess why I’m not able to wind the tensioner? This is what I just discovered.

Did it break just now, or do you suspect it has been broken for a while?

At this point you have to keep on going, but boy, this bike looks like a bottomless pit of frustration.

… nothing is broke, it’s missing the entire worm gear!