Religion - which one is "the best"?

I see alot of hurt and brokeness here. Discussion may help. I love you guys.

aaronhall555 wrote:

Way to use your logic and reason!

You might be careful in how you throw comments like that at others in light of your advocacy for The Zeitgeist Movement & The Venus Project

The leap of faith required to buy into that isn't any different than the essential leap of faith to believe there is a God. I suspect the Captain makes a pretty determined effort to live his life along the tenants of what he believes in (bearing witness being part of many Christian churches) - how close is your lifestyle to being lived in aproved Zeitgeist/Venus fashion?

When the issue of "religion" comes up, many rush to point out examples of hypocrisy, evil, and greed in the religion they choose to bash that particular day. For many, the flavour of the day currently happens to be Islam and the actions of Wahabbist Muslims (not that most would recognize or know there is a difference between Wahabbism and mainstream Islamic belief). Amusingly, some of them are "Christians", who apparently couldn't summon up the same indignation a few decades ago when a bunch of us got sent to Yugoslavia to stop Christians who were slaughtering Bosniak Muslims in much greater numbers.

We focus on pedophile priests - ignoring that they are a tiny minority of all priests and all sex offenders, and that the majority of those who sexually abuse children are a family member or trusted friend. BTW, why so little criticism for the blatant racism of an Al Sharpton, a Jesse Jackson, a Louis Farrakan? Because they're black, so they get a pass, where a white pastor saying similar thing about blacks or Muslims or Jews would (quite rightly) be condemned?

We focus on "religious wars" - ignoring that for many of those wars, religion was nothing but a handy pretext used to justify the act, and while also ignoring the slaughters began by men who lacked religious belief.

We focus on crimes committed by "Christian fundamentalists" - ignoring the fact that the overwhelming majority of violent, predatory offenders in our jails have no religious beliefs to hopefully bring some morality to their life.

It becomes a case of attempting to sell exceptions as proving the rule.

The reality is, believe in a God or not, religion of all kinds is a generally positive force in the world. Very, very few of the aid organizations I have seen in tours overseas were not faith-based. And while the common theme is that they just do that to brainwash new converts, it is pretty hard to do when your volunteer from Nebraska doesn't speak Somali and sees each person for about 15 seconds while ladling food into a bowl. Most religious leaders/workers have no other motivation than bettering the condition of their fellow man and their actions show that. And most religious people, to varying degrees, try to live their lives in accordance with the morality and lifestyle their religion sets out for them.

It is true that religion will not make an evil person good. On the other hand, it may well help the tempted to stay within the norms of being a good person.

And it is also true that a lack of religion will also not make an evil person good, or improve their likelihood of being a good member of their community.

If somebody gains comfort from their religious beliefs, be they Christian or Muslim or Wiccan, and feels better able to deal with their world, then great. If they gain comfort and strength from a firm belief that there is no Creator, nothing more to existence than the spark of life that exists in their body during their lifespan, then that's okay to.

Jäger wrote:

aaronhall555 wrote:

Way to use your logic and reason!

You might be careful in how you throw comments like that at others in light of your advocacy for The Zeitgeist Movement & The Venus Project

The leap of faith required to buy into that isn't any different than the essential leap of faith to believe there is a God. I suspect the Captain makes a pretty determined effort to live his life along the tenants of what he believes in (bearing witness being part of many Christian churches) - how close is your lifestyle to being lived in aproved Zeitgeist/Venus fashion?

It was just a little sarcasm, to encourage thinking a little more deeply...

I still see the Zeitgeist Movement as a more logical and sensible approach to how civilisation should be, because what we have now is not the best we can do. Lets face it, our political systems and monetary systems and consume consume consume economy have turned in to a joke, a dangerous joke, but that's another thread. Also the Zeigeist Movement and Venus Project are based on scientific evidence and research, not dogma. Like do we have the materials and technology to make sure every human being on earth can have fresh drinking water, opposed to can we close our eyes and pray to have fresh drinking water for everyone on earth.

Never said Captain wasn't a man of integrity, but was I just making a point that you don't have to believe in god or subscribe to a religion to be a man of integrity.

IndigoWolf wrote:

There were a number of our founding fathers who were non-theists as well. Several were skeptics at best when it came to religious theory. Thus the freedom from state religion and the freedom for religious choice, ... or not.

"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."

I did not know there were atheists in the founders.. i knew many were not christians, but most were theists, iirc. Jefferson was openly a theist (i think they identified themselves as 'deists' at the time), but not a christian. Who identified themselves as atheists? ..unless you mean something else by 'non-theist'.

Franklin was another.. openly 'deist'.

But you made a good point about Jefferson wanting obvious bias to christianity removed. And as one of the chief author's of the Declaration of Independence, his voice of reason & tolerance to other viewpoints is an inspiration to millions of people throughout history.

Had a really good session last night. Did an illumination and soul retrieval on a young guy who was broadsided by a speeding car and in a coma in hospital. Surgery went well, and he's responding to voices now.

aaronhall555 wrote:

It was just a little sarcasm, to encourage thinking a little more deeply...

Which could equally be encouraged for anyone who exhibits an even greater leap of faith in buying into the Zeitgeist Movement.

Quote :

Also the Zeigeist Movement and Venus Project are based on scientific evidence and research, not dogma.

Really?

Where can I find the peer reviewed research that confirms that drugs like crack aren't actually addictive? Peter Joseph or any of the others selling that snake oil willing to demonstrate that for us by doing crack for about a month and then just stopping? Put a little skin in the game?

Where can I read the evidence and research that backs the claims that abandoning a monetary economy for a resource based economy would eliminate greed, violence, deviance, etc? We have had resource based economies in history, and they all came with more than their share of greed, violence, and deviance.

Where can I read the evidence and research that shows that men like Fidel Castro, Vladimir Putin, Chavez, Sayed, etc, are actually part of a large conspiracy of individuals working towards the moment where they and every leader like them step aside and hand their power to an international cabal of bankers, a New World Order, etc? They just don't seem like those kind of people, so I'm really curious about that.

Where can I read the scientific evidence and research of how our resource based world will produce all these robots that do all the work while we lay around making love, amusing ourselves in other ways once us old guys get tired, and doing all these non-addictive drugs?

And most of all, where can I read the scientific evidence and research that shows how, once you've done away with government and the police and the military, that a group stronger than you - say, a bunch of vets that are quite familiar with weapons and how to effectively use them - won't simply decide to fill that authority vacuum and start declaring that Zeitgeist is dead and from that point onward things will run by THEIR rules? How is that avoided.

Zeitgeist/Venus is just another faith based religion. Perhaps possibly worse in the leap of faith it requires. An all powerful Creator can do anything, therefore if he does exist anything is possible. But Zeitgeist/Venus depends on mankind being of goodwill, all men wanting the same thing, and nobody saying "They beat their swords to plowshares, so now they can plough for those of us who didn't". To believe that could come to pass among men is a far greater stretch of logic and rational than believing in a creator, because we have thousands of years of human history which tells us exactly what the nature of man is.

SheWolf wrote:

Had a really good session last night. Did an illumination and soul retrieval on a young guy who was broadsided by a speeding car and in a coma in hospital. Surgery went well, and he's responding to voices now.

Sorry to hear about your friend. That sucks a lot.

To be topical, I can't think of anyone I know who doesn't have within their family, friends, acquaintances, neighbors, etc at least one person who is a Christian who believes in the power of prayer. I'm sure that's true for this young guy as well.

And so, I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that somewhere tonight, a Christian is praying again, this time thanking God that they're prayers that the surgery go well were answered and that he is at least responding.

Who gets credit for the win? Everyone believes their good heart and intentions had a positive outcome. That's what really counts.

SheWolf wrote:

Had a really good session last night. Did an illumination and soul retrieval on a young guy who was broadsided by a speeding car and in a coma in hospital. Surgery went well, and he's responding to voices now.

That's good news. It is amazing how much a healing touch and a little light can do. Blessings to your friend and you.

Jäger wrote:

Everyone believes their good heart and intentions had a positive outcome. That's what really counts.

Going to Heaven for enernity is what counts. Life here on earth is temperary.

rydnseek wrote:

But you made a good point about Jefferson wanting obvious bias to christianity removed. And as one of the chief author's of the Declaration of Independence, his voice of reason & tolerance to other viewpoints is an inspiration to millions of people throughout history.

T Jefferson was an incredibly complex character. He extracted all of the "magic" bits from his "bible" to make it a document that concentrated on ethical values rather than supernatural.

He used the word "God" a lot in his writing, but refused to define what that entity might be. "It behooves him [“each man”], too, in his own case, to give no example of concession, betraying the common right of independent opinion, by answering questions of faith which the laws have left between God and himself." If we had a lot more Christians who practiced Jesus' recommendation ["But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you."] and Jefferson's practice, religion might cease to be such a source of violence and hatred in the world. The world was a better place for Jefferson's existence.

The more I read about those "Plain, Honest Men," the more I realize what an incredible event the founding of this country was. And the more I am saddened by the place it is becoming.

twday wrote:

The more I read about those "Plain, Honest Men," the more I realize what an incredible event the founding of this country was. And the more I am saddened by the place it is becoming.

I heartily agree!!

It is amazing to read the thoughts of these guys & considering the context & the times, it was amazingly radical & revolutionary. These writings & the surrounding history have impacted the modern world more than any other, imo.. at least in moving the world toward liberty. Monarchies & dictatorships have fallen over the years as more & more countries move toward Jeffersonian democracy. It's a work in progress, & we will have setbacks, but if we keep the basic 'self evident' truths in mind, the compelling power of the truth of those writings do their work. It resonates in the human spirit. It is what we want. Freedom.

rydnseek wrote:

It is amazing to read the thoughts of these guys & considering the context & the times, it was amazingly radical & revolutionary. These writings & the surrounding history have impacted the modern world more than any other, imo.. at least in moving the world toward liberty. Monarchies & dictatorships have fallen over the years as more & more countries move toward Jeffersonian democracy. It's a work in progress, & we will have setbacks, but if we keep the basic 'self evident' truths in mind, the compelling power of the truth of those writings do their work. It resonates in the human spirit. It is what we want. Freedom.

I read recently that even Thomas Friedman suspects that the last 30 years of the US has damaged the reputation of democracy so badly that world democracy is searching for a new role model. Of course, Freidman hasn't been a strong advocate for democracy or classless freedom since the 80's, so I'm not sure that he is bothered by this. It appears to me that more countries are moving toward parliamentary democracy and I'm beginning to suspect that system is more flexible than our system. In the future, I think governments will need to be more able to "turn on a dime" and representative government controlled by static vested interests is completely unable to perform that task.

For most of my life, I've been thankful to Aaron Burr for taking Hamilton out of the running for national office. The more I read about Hamilton's vision of the federal government, the more I appreciate Burr. A whole lot of the flaws in our political system can be pinned on Hamilton's successes in the Constitutional Convention. You can see the beginnings of our corporatocracy in his words.

It's odd that it's possible to read detailed biographies of Hamilton that praise his vision and detailed accounts of Hamilton's effect on his contemporaries that revile him as a spokesman for aristocracy. Somehow, he looks good in isolation but almost traitorous in context.

Bump, so everybody doesn't go to hell.

Captain Midnight wrote:

Bump, so everybody doesn't go to hell.

So what - you wanna talk about the hypocrisy and commercialism surrounding December 25th?
How it's actually a pagan holiday that the christian church basically hijacked for it's own benefit,
and how there's absolutely no connection to December 25th and the "birth of Jesus Christ"?

Happy Winter Solstice!!!!!!!!!!!

Na...I think the cap' just wants to talk about doin the right thing...best he knows how.

As do i, and i am sure most people.

God is an argument,as well as religion...

I accept that "religion" is common in how people deal with an "almighty" god.

What you , ultimately think "God" is...determines the truth you seek.

I believe god is created by man, to serve man. Every persons' mind is wired to accept the god concept. So it is expected that some will take that idea to the extreme...so to say.
The human mind demands reasoning...and to some, "God" can be the only reason that explains it all, enough.

My issues aren't whether god exists or not..rather how people interpret what their god...or god, in general wants.

As far as gods go, "The God" has certainly been vague on his absolute wishes...at least not concerned enough to leave an absolute, god worthy message.
Rather , leaving plenty of room for argument and confusion...considering we are only humans.
When an absolute message, from a "real" god would impact most all of humanity with extreme motivation. It seems a clear message to humanity is beyond the god's wishes/ability...at least.

Therefore it seems more likely to me that we all create god to fill in the part of humanity that is too ugly or unpredictable to fathom with our experience...just another human fail safe, that will allow us to survive and thrive...
...so common that I think it may be the most common fail safe in the human mind...to protect it from knowing all the universe has to offer, at any one time.
To find comfort in a pattern makes sense...
To break a pattern, to adapt to something new is uneasing...for better or worse.
The desire for mankind to find the perfect pattern or reasoning, is huge...
Gods or not...we are here to find/seek the truth...
Either god will tell us, or we will figure it out on our own...

Personly, I am not waiting for god to confirm what I have figured, as right or wrong...I will decide that myself and with my peers...to the best of my ability.
Others would rather leave that burden/duty to a god.

Really, we , each, only have so much time to argue our point...
...no wonder some would rather just accept a god , and move on...can't blame 'em for that.

mucker wrote:

Na...I think the cap' just wants to talk about doin the right thing...best he knows how.

As do i, and i am sure most people.

God is an argument,as well as religion...

I accept that "religion" is common in how people deal with an "almighty" god.

What you , ultimately think "God" is...determines the truth you seek.

I believe god is created by man, to serve man. Every persons' mind is wired to accept the god concept. So it is expected that some will take that idea to the extreme...so to say.
The human mind demands reasoning...and to some, "God" can be the only reason that explains it all, enough.

My issues aren't whether god exists or not..rather how people interpret what their god...or god, in general wants.

As far as gods go, "The God" has certainly been vague on his absolute wishes...at least not concerned enough to leave an absolute, god worthy message.
Rather , leaving plenty of room for argument and confusion...considering we are only humans.
When an absolute message, from a "real" god would impact most all of humanity with extreme motivation. It seems a clear message to humanity is beyond the god's wishes/ability...at least.

Therefore it seems more likely to me that we all create god to fill in the part of humanity that is too ugly or unpredictable to fathom with our experience...just another human fail safe, that will allow us to survive and thrive...
...so common that I think it may be the most common fail safe in the human mind...to protect it from knowing all the universe has to offer, at any one time.
To find comfort in a pattern makes sense...
To break a pattern, to adapt to something new is uneasing...for better or worse.
The desire for mankind to find the perfect pattern or reasoning, is huge...
Gods or not...we are here to find/seek the truth...
Either god will tell us, or we will figure it out on our own...

Personly, I am not waiting for god to confirm what I have figured, as right or wrong...I will decide that myself and with my peers...to the best of my ability.
Others would rather leave that burden/duty to a god.

Really, we , each, only have so much time to argue our point...
...no wonder some would rather just accept a god , and move on...can't blame 'em for that.

Great post! .. some nice, deep, philosophical musings in there.

For me, the existence of God is THE most important question in the universe. If there is no God & life is a cosmic accident, then nothing really matters. You're alive for a few years, then die. Eternity past & eternity future have no meaning. Your short time of existence is a blip on the radar screen. Eternity & the universe take no notice of you.

But if there is a God & an afterlife of sorts, then that seems to me to be the most important factor in our lives.. if what we do & think during this short time affects us for eternity, then the stakes are much higher. IF there is a spiritual realm, then finding out about it would seem to be a fairly important part of our world view, & would affect our plans, lifestyle, interaction with others, & overall outlook.

IF there is a God, then another thing can be deduced: God has shrouded himself in mystery, & has not plainly revealed himself to his creation. He seems to not be bothered by dogmatic assertions from the religious or irreligious alike, & lets us bicker, fight, & kill each other to defend or promote our ideas of what he is like. I cannot deduce what his purpose in that might be.

There is Truth. There is an ultimate Reality. Most (if not all) of us just do not know what it is. We speculate, deduce, & reason with what information we have, but we do not know.

Eccl. 8:14 There is futility which is done on the earth, that is, there are righteous men to whom it happens according to the deeds of the wicked. On the other hand, there are evil men to whom it happens according to the deeds of the righteous. I say that this too is futility. 15 So I commended pleasure, for there is nothing good for a man under the sun except to eat and to drink and to be merry, and this will stand by him in his toils throughout the days of his life which God has given him under the sun.

16 When I gave my heart to know wisdom and to see the task which has been done on the earth (even though one should never sleep day or night), 17 and I saw every work of God, I concluded that man cannot discover the work which has been done under the sun. Even though man should seek laboriously, he will not discover; and though the wise man should say, “I know,” he cannot discover.

rydnseek wrote:

But if there is a God & an afterlife of sorts, then that seems to me to be the most important factor in our lives.. if what we do & think during this short time affects us for eternity, then the stakes are much higher

How fucked up is THAT god if that's the case?

I'm sticking with Taoism as a guide (and not an absolute by any means).

motokid wrote:

rydnseek wrote:

But if there is a God & an afterlife of sorts, then that seems to me to be the most important factor in our lives.. if what we do & think during this short time affects us for eternity, then the stakes are much higher

How fucked up is THAT god if that's the case?

I'm sticking with Taoism as a guide (and not an absolute by any means).

AFAIK, all religions have some kind of explanation for the afterlife, & imply or state forcefully the correlation between our thoughts & actions, & how eternity treats us. I was making no judgement, but only a point of logic. IF what we do & think affects us, THEN what we do & say becomes eternally important. If not, it doesn't matter.

I'll let you judge god, & make determinations about him/her. I'm just a seeker of Truth.

When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries disappear and life stands explained.
Mark Twain

To know that you do not know is the best. To pretend to know when you do not know is a disease.
Lao Tzu

For those who reflect on themselves, everything they encounter is medicine. For those who attack others, every thought is a weapon. One is the way to initiate all good, one is the way to deepen all evil. They are as far apart as sky and earth.
Lao Tzu

The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
Gal. 6:8 NIV

“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
Benjamin Franklin

rydnseek wrote:

IF(there were a god/afterlife) what we do & think affects us, THEN what we do & say becomes eternally important. If not, it doesn't matter.

So you're saying if we knew there absolutely were no god and/or afterlife, our actions and what we think and say does not matter?

To put this in to perspective:
"How can you have morality without God?" (aka: What keeps you from raping and killing people?) Ask the theist:

1) "Do you want to (rape) (kill) your neighbor or others right now?"
2) "Is God keeping you from (raping) (killing) your neighbor or others?"
3) "If God gave you 1 free pass to (rape) (kill), would you use it?"
4) "If God commanded you to (rape) (kill) your neighbor or others, would you do it?"

Interesting to see the "no" answers pile up as the dividing line between God and innate morality is illuminated.


My point is that even IF we absolutely knew there were no god or afterlife or reason we exist, our action DO matter to our personal wellbeing and others around us. It matters to 'us'(humanity) for our wellbeing and ultimately our survival. Morals change with the knowledge of the times, and our collective knowledge is only getting greater(because of science, not faith) which bring on morals that support our wellbeing or else we would just eradicate ourselves.

(Going off on a little tangent)
While I'm on this provocative thread I'd like to post a quote from a fellow atheist:
"When does the use of faith ever help distinguish the truth or falsity of a claim? Faith is not a helpful component of human progress; it does not help us distinguish between the real and the unreal." - Renee

aaronhall555 wrote:

rydnseek wrote:

IF(there were a god/afterlife) what we do & think affects us, THEN what we do & say becomes eternally important. If not, it doesn't matter.

So you're saying if we knew there absolutely were no god and/or afterlife, our actions and what we think and say does not matter?

Yeah, i guess pretty much. I wasn't really talking about morality, but i guess that's what everyone assumes we're discussing. I was trying to be broader.. including 'what we think", which several religions include.. part of karma & inner purity, i suppose.

Quote :

To put this in to perspective:
"How can you have morality without God?" (aka: What keeps you from raping and killing people?) Ask the theist:

1) "Do you want to (rape) (kill) your neighbor or others right now?"
2) "Is God keeping you from (raping) (killing) your neighbor or others?"
3) "If God gave you 1 free pass to (rape) (kill), would you use it?"
4) "If God commanded you to (rape) (kill) your neighbor or others, would you do it?"

Interesting to see the "no" answers pile up as the dividing line between God and innate morality is illuminated.

I don't think most people have a criminal streak in them, or look for a free pass to commit crimes, regardless of their philosophical views. Of course there are many sociopaths with views all over the map & they don't need an excuse to justify crimes against humanity. My point was not whether theists or atheists are moral, but whether their thoughts and actions had any eternal benefits or consequences.

Quote :

My point is that even IF we absolutely knew there were no god or afterlife or reason we exist, our action DO matter to our personal wellbeing and others around us. It matters to 'us'(humanity) for our wellbeing and ultimately our survival. Morals change with the knowledge of the times, and our collective knowledge is only getting greater(because of science, not faith) which bring on morals that support our wellbeing or else we would just eradicate ourselves.

Sure, even atheists know there are sometimes immediate consequences to actions. Most people want to get along with their neighbors & be well thought of by their friends & associates. I wasn't being so immediate.. i was floating around on a philosophical cloud with mucker, pondering the deep meaning of life.

Quote :

(Going off on a little tangent)
While I'm on this provocative thread I'd like to post a quote from a fellow atheist:
"When does the use of faith ever help distinguish the truth or falsity of a claim? Faith is not a helpful component of human progress; it does not help us distinguish between the real and the unreal." - Renee

Good quote. On the forums, though, dogmatic assertions are the most widely used means to make those distinctions.. or so it seems to me. Truth is not really sought per se, but only winning an argument. What is the point of winning (or thinking you won) an argument if it does not lead to enlightened thinking? Is it just for propaganda purposes?

Orators are most vehement when their cause is weak.
Cicero

My religiosity consists in a humble admiration of the infinitely superior spirit that reveals itself in the little that we, with our weak and transitory understanding, can comprehend of reality. Morality is of the highest importance - but for us, not for God.
Albert Einstein

“Respond intelligently even to unintelligent treatment.”
Lao Tzu

"Me? I always tell the truth.. even when I lie."
Scarface

Certainly, good morality, is not exclusive to any, one belief, or understanding. To think so, would be ignorant, or at least, extremely biased.

Though, when we question each others morality or intentions...we are concerned about how that effects us...otherwise we wouldn't be concerned.

I feel, the biggest rift between athiests and believers is the commitment to an afterlife. There is a big difference between giving all you have, into this one life...and giving to this life, while expecting , anything, after it.
To suggest an afterlife, is more important somehow, than this one...is a major flaw in thinking/logic, to an aithiest and nature in general.
...maybe useful for councel to someone suicidal or down and out or desperate in general...but someone like that probably cant handle the truth to begin with...hence their issue. I guess thats better than nothing...but debateable.

If you are not fully committed to this life...can I trust you?...I've seen people believe god will reward them with virgins....sounds insane to me...but you can be damned sure, they believe it is true. If they can fail in my eyes, like that...what prevents any other false belief from distorting the truth?

OK...so religion has brought along some of the good lessons of human kind, just by being organized for so long...it has harnessed allot of goodness. Humans come up with good ideas, regardless of the walk of life.
Those lessons can be enjoyed by all...until they are crammed into an illogical package.
I believe ancient man has learned about truth more than modern man has...though we continue to seek the truth.
The last 100 years has been a marvel, but the thousands of years before, is the vast of human knowledge.
Without realizing that, how can the human race move forward?

If you restrict what we have learnt, to just what god wants...your probably missing all that humanity has to offer.
If you feel the last, couple hundred years, is our best thoughts...you probably missing all that humanity has to offer.

We need to learn from the past...religions included...but the truth is...gotta suck it up at some point and take it as it is. That or keep avoiding info/comments that may make you uncomfortable.
The path to the truth, probably, won't be comfortable.
we'll probably strugglle at it, like the last few thousand years.
The last couple hundred years has bred some cool tools and methods...but our understanding of us, is still in timing, relatively, with the history/age of man.
The lessons we learn are the most important thing. the good lessons will survive time. that, or we won't survive.

I, personally get along well with my peers of religous conviction...because I feel they are motivated to do the best they can...

Hypocrites, now that's what hurts religion and even logical people, in general.

But no point in arguing bullshitters, I am just concerned with seeking the truth...not a comfortable other...

mucker wrote:

Certainly, good morality, is not exclusive to any, one belief, or understanding. To think so, would be ignorant, or at least, extremely biased.

Though, when we question each others morality or intentions...we are concerned about how that effects us...otherwise we wouldn't be concerned.

In a practical, day to day matter, we might make those questions. That is where actions come from.. the philosophy of the individual. But in a purely philosophical sense, the logic of the morality is the question. What is the basis for that morality?

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I feel, the biggest rift between athiests and believers is the commitment to an afterlife. There is a big difference between giving all you have, into this one life...and giving to this life, while expecting , anything, after it.
To suggest an afterlife, is more important somehow, than this one...is a major flaw in thinking/logic, to an aithiest and nature in general.
...maybe useful for councel to someone suicidal or down and out or desperate in general...but someone like that probably cant handle the truth to begin with...hence their issue. I guess thats better than nothing...but debateable.

I don't see how the question of an afterlife can be considered unimportant. If there is no afterlife.. this life is all there is. You live. You die. There may be many or few years between.. filled with nothing or insignificant deeds. This is basic existentialist reasoning. IF there is an afterlife.. if life or some form of it continues for eternity (or thereabouts) what could be more important than that? It is a major fallacy to think a few years here & then eternal darkness has more significance than a few short years here then eternity in a different form, whether with consciousness or not.

A true atheist has to grasp that. He (using the word generically, not sexually) has to come to grips with eternal darkness & non-existence. This life is all there is. To face eternal non-existence is a very sobering endeavor. It is not done lightly or with any back door escapes. A lot of professing atheists are only theists who are mad at god. They don't really believe in eternal non-existence. They are too flippant about eternity, & have not really faced the insignificance & pointlessness of life. They are throwing philosophical tantrums in hope that god will give them special treatment & reveal himself to them.

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If you are not fully committed to this life...can I trust you?...I've seen people believe god will reward them with virgins....sounds insane to me...but you can be damned sure, they believe it is true. If they can fail in my eyes, like that...what prevents any other false belief from distorting the truth?

I don't see it as being 'fully committed to this life' as much as being fully committed to one's philosophy. IF you truly believe an eternal paradise awaits you if you die killing infidels, you can justify your actions. It is the belief system, not this life, that the person is motivated by. If i am talking to an atheist, i do not think, ' oh, this person is fully committed to this life, therefore i can trust him'. Atheists can lie as well as any theist, & can kill & steal, too. Theists, too. I'm not subscribing superior morality to any philosophical position. If there is a superior morality, it depends more on the individual, not the philosophical leanings of his position. Hypocrisy is rampant in humans.

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OK...so religion has brought along some of the good lessons of human kind, just by being organized for so long...it has harnessed allot of goodness. Humans come up with good ideas, regardless of the walk of life.
Those lessons can be enjoyed by all...until they are crammed into an illogical package.
I believe ancient man has learned about truth more than modern man has...though we continue to seek the truth.
The last 100 years has been a marvel, but the thousands of years before, is the vast of human knowledge.
Without realizing that, how can the human race move forward?

I don't know what 'good' is. That is a moral judgment, & has to have some sort of basis. Whose definition do we use? Budda's? Jesus? Marx? Mine? Yours? 'Good' is like beauty or art.. it is in the eye of the beholder. This is from a purely philosophical standpoint. In the real world we appeal to what is good, & have some point of reference to agree. But without a common basis, 'good' can mean different things.

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If you restrict what we have learnt, to just what god wants...your probably missing all that humanity has to offer.
If you feel the last, couple hundred years, is our best thoughts...you probably missing all that humanity has to offer.

We need to learn from the past...religions included...but the truth is...gotta suck it up at some point and take it as it is. That or keep avoiding info/comments that may make you uncomfortable.
The path to the truth, probably, won't be comfortable.
we'll probably strugglle at it, like the last few thousand years.
The last couple hundred years has bred some cool tools and methods...but our understanding of us, is still in timing, relatively, with the history/age of man.
The lessons we learn are the most important thing. the good lessons will survive time. that, or we won't survive.

Good balance of thoughts.. we should learn from all times, & be open to all ideas. Prejudice & closed mindedness may be more comfortable, but it does not enlighten.

But if there is one TRUTH, which obviously there is, then what that truth is has more direct affect on us than what we might imagine or believe, whether based in long standing tradition or recent ideas. If there is a god, & he wants something as you suggested, i would propose that to be of prime importance. One would have to be a fool to believe there to be eternal consequences for something, but not care. I submit that the person who says one thing, but lives another does not reinforce their position, but weaken it. They don't really believe it. That is the basis for human hypocrisy.

IF there is a god of wrath who throws the wicked into hell, yes, that would be very uncomfortable. IF that is true, disbelieving it won't make it go away.

Fortunately, as humans, we have evolved to the philosophical smorgasbord we have now. If we don't like a particular idea, we dismiss it & pick something we do like. But the true truth seeker does not care about the consequences of the Truth, but only in finding it. The opinions, writings, & judgments of others do not matter. Only the real truth is important. The personal discomfort or affect on the truth seeker's lifestyle do not matter. What is truth? That is the question.

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I, personally get along well with my peers of religous conviction...because I feel they are motivated to do the best they can...
Hypocrites, now that's what hurts religion and even logical people, in general.
But no point in arguing bullshitters, I am just concerned with seeking the truth...not a comfortable other...

Of course. We seldom ponder life's deeper meanings with our friends & associates. The anonymity of the internet & the written word allows some reflection, & can be a means of pursuing truth. But of course it is also a place for fools to babble. We should not allow the hypocrisy or folly of others to distract us from the pursuit of truth & understanding.

“I think we ought always to entertain our opinions with some measure of doubt. I shouldn’t wish people dogmatically to believe any philosophy, not even mine.”
Bertrand Russell

The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare

The person lives most beautifully who does not reflect upon existence.
Friedrich Neitzsche

I considered atheism, but there weren't enough holidays.

I believe in God; I just don't trust anyone who works for him.

Or - one could look at it this way:

If there is an "after-life" the significance of what we do here on Earth is in fact diminished into nothing.

75-ish years is nothing when compared to eternity.

Suggesting that what we do in this life has ramifications for the rest of eternity is like saying that getting a speeding ticket for 5 mph over the speed limit should doom you to a life-in-prison jail sentence because it's obvious your breaking the law, regardless of the relative insignificance of it, is a definition of who you are.

Since "religion" is a man-made concept, and in general it's used to control people, the thought that what you do in this life will have a direct impact on your "eternity" is quite obviously a method of control through fear.

If you fear that something you might want to do will hurt your possible eternity you more than likely won't do that something.

It's a tool for control.

It's using fear of a possible or potential un-ending future to guide people through the present.

Again - the reality of that would speak volumes about how insanely un-loving and vicious the purveyor of that system actually is.

Good is assumed by the people of today....and decided by the people of tomorrow....as it has always been.
To mean well and to do well are two different things...both come from good people.

There is certainly only ONE truth.

...And I want to do well, for the betterment of humanity, as well as myself. I am confident that i can play a significant role in our well being...even if small. Matter of fact, its all our small efforts that have built humanity to what it is.
Being concerned about my eternal self, could only serve to distract me, from what is important now.
I feel, somehow , I owe it to humanity. to do my part...
...or be part of the problem, so to say.


Einstein said," If you cannot explain something simply, then you do not know it well enough".