Religion - which one is "the best"?

Jäger wrote:

aaronhall555 wrote:

That would prove absolutely nothing, as we know there would be no real proof presented. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Post one that you think has proof. Let's see it!

So... a YouTube video that purports to offer proof there is no God/Creator/Whatever is an ordinary claim requiring no particular proof. But a YouTube video that offers the alternate view is not the same, and demanding of extraordinary proof.

You can't prove how life simply came into existence from a pile of inert elements and minerals, yet feel no extraordinary proof is required from your point of view in your claims that there is no God, and thus the existence of life itself did not begin with God.

Different rules for different people. And curiously enough, the higher burden of proof seems to fall on the camp you disagree with.

Atheist are not making the extraordinary claim there is no god, just that there is no evidence to prove there is one, so the default is to not believe in one, until proven otherwise. Christians assert their god is the one and only god when there are other religions out there claiming another or multiple, so because Christians can't disprove the other god(s) why don't they believe in them? If I claim there is a spaghetti monster that lives on the dark side of the planet Pluto should you have to provide evidence that it does not exist or should I be providing you with evidence?

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How someone grasps eternity is completely subjective.

Eternity is not subjective. It is a fact.

How you think someone "grasps" something IS subjective. And to be scientific here, there is no consensus that "Eternity" is a fact. Eternity is a concept.

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Burden of proof is the ones making the extraordinary claims.

Such as the concept that one moment the universe was nothing but minerals, compounds, and elements. And the next moment, a small fragment of that inert material suddenly came to life, reproducing itself - and life. And it just happened. No, nothing extraordinary about that belief system.

I am completely comfortable with saying I do not know how everything came in to being or how life exactly began. Thankfully for scientific and creative minds we are discovering how this is possible. And we have some pretty good educated guesses, backed with scientific experiments and proof, as to what the first living and replicating cell could have been; They found that a cell would self-assemble in a simple cocktail of water, fatty acids and units of genetic material. See this website if you would like some more information: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=scientists-close-to-recon .

You can also see many other peer reviewed articles about this:

(The first living systems: a bioenergetic perspective.) http://mmbr.asm.org/content/61/2/239.short

(Bioenergetics and Life's Origins) http://cshperspectives.cshlp.org/content/2/2/a004929.abstract

(The Origins of Cellular Life) http://cshperspectives.cshlp.org/content/2/9/a002212.short?rss=1

And for more information on evolution and the origins of life see: http://www.talkorigins.org/


All of that sounds a lot more likely than, well, all of this:

"The story of Adam and Eve

God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.

Then the LORD God formed a man[a] from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

The LORD God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.”

Then the woman goes on to have a conversation with a talking snake about eating forbidden fruit.""


And sure there are thousands of other religions and beliefs... but all that matter is that what is stated is fact and should have ample evidence of proof. And our only way to validate our proof is with science.

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Here's a good read about eugenics by an atheist http://richarddawkins.net/discussions/556602-what-s-so-wrong-with-eugenics . Eugenics is a proven science, we use it all the time from how our food is produced to how we choose a mate.

Ah, another enthusiast for the Josef Mengele branch of the sciences.

I don't believe in genocide. And I'm not a Dawkins follower, just though his article had some good points. I highly doubt Dawkins would want to harm any of humanity. Most articles I find on or from him are informational.

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Would it really matter how well it is received as long as proof is present. Criticism would have been a better word for me to use instead of ridicule.

And yet... we find out that leading proponents of iatrogenic global warming have been cooking the books, concealing information, discussing how to discredit critics - but that ain't proof. And when well over a thousand recognized scientists in related fields reject it as bogus - including some who were previously prominent in IPCC - well, that ain't proof either. And yet, supposedly, science is this wonderful, impartial thing.

The whole global warming thing just needs more data, so we don't have much effect now, but it's better to insure we don't cause an effect on our planet in the future, and not just for global warming but for air quality as well.

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Pointing out facts about religion is not the same as attacking it. And attacks on religion/belief is just that, attacks on the religion/belief, not the religious/the person with the belief. All in efforts to encourage critical thinking and expanding knowledge.

You and your fellow travelers can't even provide a plausible explanation on how life supposedly just... came into being.... from inanimate rock and dirt without being created by a God/Creator. And yet, despite that enormous and glaring shortcoming on your part, you feel entitled to point out "facts" about religion and religious beliefs, because those who hold those beliefs can no more prove them than you can prove yours.

See my response above with all the links that give a educated guess on how life began. Again I don't mind saying I don't know. Using science we are discovering the answers to our questions. I only believe in provable things, if it can't be proven it's just an idea or concept, and stays an idea or concept until proven otherwise, not believed until disproven.

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And the fact remains, all the shitty snide little comments about religion and those who hold religious beliefs are coming from the camp you're a member of - not from the religious, directed at people like you. You can dress it up to justify yourself any way you want to, that's the way it's playing out here.

If someone has a bizarre belief I'm going to point it out, especially over the internet as it's a fun and educational pastime. Though, I also get in to it with friends and family, but once we get bored with the subject we go back to talking about other things or cracking jokes, whatever. I live by treat people like you want to be treated. If I had a weird belief I wouldn't get upset if someone pointed out how weird it is or even better if they gave some proofs or information that brought insight on other point of views.

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Here is an interesting quote:

Christopher Hitchens - “It is entirely appropriate to ridicule absurd ideas rather than to treat them as serious and give them respect. Only serious ideas based on reason and evidence are worthy of intellectual respect. The ideas that we critique and ridicule have historically led to or facilitated war, genocide, and ethnic cleansing. They have enslaved millions, impeded medical and scientific research and are now draining vast sums of taxpayer dollars to propagate more of these ridiculous ideas.

I can think of nothing more absurd than the idea that, if we pile a bunch of rocks and lava in a laboratory for a couple of hundred million millenia, suddenly, a fragment in the pile will come to life and reproduce.

You forgot to mention Christopher Hitchens was a person who made a good part of his living off hating religion and wasn't exactly an impartial analyst of the subject. And while he made a living out of ridiculing things he personally didn't agree with, he never did quite bring himself to offer his personal explanation of how that first rock suddenly came to life, did he?

Of course, he was also a rabid Trotskyite and foaming at the mouth leftist. Up to the end of his life he remained an admirer of, among others, Lenin and Che Guevera - and he wants to talk about people who facilitated war and enslaved millions? How many Cubans did Che personally murder after the revolution? How many millions did Lenin kill through "ethnic cleansing" and enslave?

So those are Hitchens hero's - and yet those words from a man who made a living out of hating religion are supposed to have some sort of meaning? I suppose they do in a sense - like the mass murders Che Guevera and Lenin, Hitchens also was an atheist.

I’m sure how life began was a little more than just a pile of rocks(which is practically what the religions say happened, “God made man out of dust on the ground...). It’s definitely not absurd that life happened by chemical evolution from common elements and compounds found here on earth, where our environment is in constant change via solar energy/wind/water movement, land movement and chemical reactions. Here read some more insightful articles/forums:
(...Life Could Begin By Chance) http://www.science20.com/stars_planets_life/calculating_odds_life_could_begin_chance

(Probability that life arose by random chance) http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/sapient/philosophy_and_psychology_with_chaoslord_and_todangst/11907


I'm not a Hitchens follower either, and I don't really agree on his political views, but just though he had a good quote, nonetheless.

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Sorry, science trumps faith, see proof. All of the great thinkers/innovators use science to achieve their contributions that better our knowledge and capabilities. Whether they admit it or not.

We know you're sorry, but that's not the point. You said that religious beliefs do noting to advance human progress. The fact remains that many, and probably the majority, of the people bringing about that progress - such as Lincoln - hold deep religious beliefs. Many are inspired to do what they accomplish precisely because of those beliefs. Of course, the only way you can deal with that is to say "Lincoln was actually using science, not his religious morality, in his drive to end slavery." I'm not sure how you have come to feel you can critique Lincoln at your tender young age, although I am sure that there are an amazing number of people your age who think they know everything (amazingly enough, the percentage who know everything drops astoundingly as they get older). I am also sure that your explanation for what motivates a Lincoln is the inevitable result of your personal failure to grasp religion - or even grasp the concept.

I can not think of a good example of religious beliefs actually advancing human progress, only oppressive ones come to mind. Your Lincoln example is a stretch, morals are not learned through religion. Just because Lincoln claims he did it because of his faith is like a patient that had a successful operation and then praises God instead of the surgeon; because the patient or even the doctor said “Thank God” or “Praise the Lord”, does that mean god/religious faith did it? No, it was the surgeons training and knowledge, and our evolved biological ability to heal, that's based on science.

I definitely do not think I know everything by any means. Though, I like to think that I have a more broad education and I’m more inquisitive than most.

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Lincoln was also a victim of culture, the dominant religion he was indoctrinated in to had him thinking that his intuition was because of God, everything can be god to some people. People today think they see Jesus in their toast and some even blow themselves up because they think they are doing God's working.

Being victimized into ending slavery, building a nation - we need more victims like that.

Anyone with intelligence knows that we should be free of enslavement. Treat people like you want to be treated, is not a religious moral. Us humans have self-awareness, that also gives us the ability to think about how our actions would effect others.

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I guess that's the way it works. Back then they were victimized and indocrinated by God; these days they're victimized and indoctrinated by things like the Venus Project. The brainwashing apparently never stops. Some people see Jesus in their toast; others think the Venus Project is a rational view of reality.

I don't follow The Venus Project or The Zeitgeist Movement like they are the holy grail or like they are some sort of prophecy. I just acknowledge they have some valid points and seems to point out scientific information in regards to how we can make life better for everyone and more sustainable. They are just ideas on how to better our society and economy, nothing like any religion. They just advocate a better way of living for all of humanity, so why do you act like they are a religion or cult? These two organizations base their ideas on current knowledge in science.

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How is an attraction to information and ideas failing at science. The Venus Project is just an organization that uses known proven technologies to depicted/advocate what could be possible if we change how our social and economical systems are structured. Isn't it bizarre that we have the resource capability and technology to solve most of the worlds problems with food, water, medical, energy and education, yet we don't have enough money? Is this really the best we can do?

The fact that you buy into The Venus Project/Zeitgeist crap is proof enough of failing at science. Where you sneer at the religious for their views on Jesus, you have a remarkably similar faith in Fresco and Joseph. Amusingly enough, like Christianity and Islam, the Venus and Zeitgeist people also have their little spats going on about who is real enough. The adherents of these movements are simply cultists - religion by another road.

What exactly do you think I am buying in to? Please be a little more specific. I have no faith in Fresco or Joseph, they are just people with ideas to me, ideas that are a compilation of known technologies to advocate a free, open, educated, and sustainable world.

Did a little browsing on the info offered here.
USSR...seems the majority are one religion or another...not much info on athiests suppressing religions in particular.
North Korea...many follow ways of confuscaism and other asian traditions, that, for some reason arent considered religions...not much said about suppressing religions, as atheist...rather, just very oppressive in general.
China...most beliefs there are not considered religions, for some reason, therefore considered atheist. No mention of any modern suppression, but have suppressed western religions in the past, as a defence against colonialism in general.
Romans...I'm not sure where that example came from...religion was deeply entrenched in their society.

Anywho, just a quick, study...anyone like to be more specific about Atheists oppressing the religious?, so I dont have to spend so much time looking. Most examples seem to be religious oppressing religious.

rydnseek wrote:

Most people see the uniqueness of humans. People draw different conclusions about that. But your mission to 'help people find the truth' puts you in the same category of the religious evangelist. You will take your 'truth' & crusade to convince the ignorant & misguided masses. That indicates a pretty heartfelt belief system.

Keep in mind...there is a huge difference between claiming to seek the truth, and claiming to have the truth. Pointing out what is un-true, seems a logical first step. Steps that lead to the truth...repeatable steps that can survive scrutiny from your peers.
The information in our universe is vast, as related to time, humans have only been seeking the truth for a short time.
We will not fail to discover the truth, unless we stop trying to.

...and if I understand "evangelical" right...then I suppose I may fall under that category...Geez, who wouldn't want the truth to be discovered and shared with our race?...

mucker wrote:

Did a little browsing on the info offered here.
USSR...seems the majority are one religion or another...not much info on athiests suppressing religions in particular.

The USSR no longer exists. Apparently, you missed that part of history back about 20 years ago. But, in short: Soviet policy toward religion was based on the ideology of Marxism-Leninism, which made atheism the official doctrine of the Soviet Union. Marxism-Leninism has consistently advocated the control, suppression, and, ultimately, the elimination of religious beliefs.[1]

The state was committed to the destruction of religion,[2][3] and to this effect it destroyed churches, mosques and temples, ridiculed, harassed and executed religious leaders, flooded the schools and media with atheistic propaganda, and generally promoted 'scientific atheism' as the truth that society should accept.[4][5]

"Scientific atheism"... almost sounds like something written by one of the participants here...

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North Korea...many follow ways of confuscaism and other asian traditions, that, for some reason arent considered religions...not much said about suppressing religions, as atheist...rather, just very oppressive in general.

LONDON, UK (ANS) -- Recent reports by human rights organizations accuse North Korea of putting up to 180,000 people into forced labor.
There are reports that Christians are among the inmates facing torture, starvation and execution in political prison camps, according to an online article at www.Christiantoday.com .

Persecution watchdog Release International is working to support North Korean Christians who have fled their country by providing safe houses, pastoral support and health care.
Andy Dipper, of Release International, said: "Those who've got away (from North Korea) describe these camps as 'hell on Earth'."
"In this land where a form of emperor worship is practiced, Christians can be detained, brutally tortured and removed from society," he said.

"Some risk being shot by border guards as they try to flee the country to avoid persecution and oppression."
Meanwhile, an interim petition calling for religious freedom in North Korea has notched up more than 20,000 signatures from concerned Christians in the UK.

Release International presented the petition to the North Korean embassy in London last week.
It demands that the oppressive communist country grant freedom of worship to Christians, who face regular harassment by the authorities and can be arrested or imprisoned for even owning a Bible.

And so it goes... BTW, neither the USSR nor North Korea had an official church of any kind, so this was not religious persecuting religious as you seem to think.

Thanks Jag, especialy for keepin an eye on my grammar. I should take an English class at nights.
May I ask your source on USSR statistics?...so as to help my studies...
No joke, I would like to educate myself. I'ld hate to assume something, when better info was at hand.

Jesus is still alive.

Captain Midnight wrote:

Jesus is still alive.

Heh...trying to stir a lil shit, eh?...I'm bored too...shame really, with all that we could contribute.

You know, when you feel like ...


Really though, I found this youtube user/channel with an excellent and well documented account of a former Christian's story of how his education and desire for truth brought him to realize he is an atheist.

I found this particularly interesting because of the research he presents about the history of the bible and it's authors, and he does provide sources. There is a scientific consensus about the history of the bible and gods.

Just thought I'd share...

His video series (Why I am no longer a Christian):

(seems like youtube wont play all of the video series within the forum, so below is a link to the series playlist.)
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLA0C3C1D163BE880A&feature=plcp

aaronhall555 wrote:

You know, when you feel like ...


Really though, I found this youtube user/channel with an excellent and well documented account of a former Christian's story of how his education and desire for truth brought him to realize he is an atheist.

I found this particularly interesting because of the research he presents about the history of the bible and it's authors, and he does provide sources. There is a scientific consensus about the history of the bible and gods.

Just thought I'd share...

His video series (Why I am no longer a Christian):

(seems like youtube wont play all of the video series within the forum, so below is a link to the series playlist.)
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLA0C3C1D163BE880A&feature=plcp

Thank You, that was very well done...and a huge amount of material.
I highly recommend them...I learned alot.

mucker wrote:

Thank You, that was very well done...and a huge amount of material.
I highly recommend them...I learned alot.

Glad someone here enjoyed it as much as I did. I had to watch the series several times because of the amount of material and I enjoyed it so much, learned more every time I watched them and followed the sources.

aaronhall555 wrote:

You know, when you feel like ...

I can imagine it does bother the raving atheists who make a religion out of criticizing religion that so damn many STILL have religious faith.

Apparently, it does not click with some people that one day, millennium in the past, a piece of inert rock apparently suddenly developed a heartbeat and that thing we call "life" but can't define or put in a box.

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Really though, I found this youtube user/channel with an excellent and well documented account of a former Christian's story of how his education and desire for truth brought him to realize he is an atheist.

And I've got spare change in my wallet that says you didn't notice all the YouTube material posted by people explaining why they became Christians. Bet you had no time for them folks, crazy bastards that they must be because they don't see their existence as you do yours.

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I found this particularly interesting because of the research he presents about the history of the bible and it's authors, and he does provide sources. There is a scientific consensus about the history of the bible and gods.

Same as the "scientific consensus" concerning your Venus Project, right?

Are you going to try and tell the audience with a straight face that whatever science concerns the Bible and Judea-Christian beliefs is settled science? Really?

But wait... you saw it on the Internet, so it must be true, right?

Jäger wrote:

aaronhall555 wrote:

You know, when you feel like ...

I can imagine it does bother the raving atheists who make a religion out of criticizing religion that so damn many STILL have religious faith.

Apparently, it does not click with some people that one day, millennium in the past, a piece of inert rock apparently suddenly developed a heartbeat and that thing we call "life" but can't define or put in a box.

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Really though, I found this youtube user/channel with an excellent and well documented account of a former Christian's story of how his education and desire for truth brought him to realize he is an atheist.

And I've got spare change in my wallet that says you didn't notice all the YouTube material posted by people explaining why they became Christians. Bet you had no time for them folks, crazy bastards that they must be because they don't see their existence as you do yours.

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I found this particularly interesting because of the research he presents about the history of the bible and it's authors, and he does provide sources. There is a scientific consensus about the history of the bible and gods.

Same as the "scientific consensus" concerning your Venus Project, right?

Are you going to try and tell the audience with a straight face that whatever science concerns the Bible and Judea-Christian beliefs is settled science? Really?

But wait... you saw it on the Internet, so it must be true, right?

You obviously never gave it a chance...because I can't imagine you could debunk a single thought he had in hours of video. Shame because it was very intelligent and easy to follow. His intelligence is genuine and complete...he doesnt really leave any loose ends. Just simple observation and truth.

If you are ever concerned about truth...you should do yourself the favour. It's not that much of an investment.

Seriously he explains things very well...

He seems very sincere.. and very nice.. unlike a lot of our resident atheists here! ..just kidding.. Our guys are nice & sincere, too, i'm sure.

I watched the first clip... then started another.. but i could not pull myself away from mtv & the fast action unbiased news of msnbc... so got bored & surfed somewhere else. A wise man once told me,

'If you cannot explain something simply...then you do not know it well enough.'

I didn't see anything in here that i've not heard before, though i did not hang on every word like many here, it seems.

I bet if i posted a video series proving the existence of god, or at least promoting that idea, no one would watch it. I doubt if i would, either. If there are some great points made, let us know, & we'll be glad to dissect it. But c'mon.. posting a video series? That's like a christian saying, 'you don't know the power of the bible.. if you'd just read it with an open mind, it would change you.'

Now have any of our guys done this? Sat & read the whole bible with an open mind?

Please understand, i am not saying for anyone to do this, just comparing this idea to telling me to watch some sincere, earnest, nicely polished video series.

How about those who watched it all, post the parts that impressed you the most? You can refer to your notes, & put down the ideas & the supporting arguments. I'll be glad to examine them.. with an open mind.. but i don't want to have to sift through hours of video to do it, though the music was very soothing.

Jäger wrote:

aaronhall555 wrote:

You know, when you feel like ...

I can imagine it does bother the raving atheists who make a religion out of criticizing religion that so damn many STILL have religious faith.

We've already discussed this, but here we go.... the reason so many atheist are speaking out or even have a hatred towards religion is because of the negative things that it does to society. Examples are: In some cases people can't hold a position in a public office if they are atheist, children are not allowed to join the Boy Scouts if they are an atheist, Christian's claiming our nation is a Christian nation when the founders clearly said it is not, "God" is on our currency(was not always on it), politicians think they are doing God's work by trying to stop women from aborting pregnancy or control women in general, politicians letting their religious ideals guide them in policy making, parents forcing their children to go to church and bible studies in order to set in indoctrination at a young age(before the child can develop an informed/educated decision about religion), some say this type of indoctrination at such a young age and telling them they will burn in hell if they do not proclaim Lord/God/Jesus as their savior and repent for sins they never committed that this is a form of mental abuse(see the documentary "Jesus Camp"), it can and does stop people from thinking for themselves or asking greater questions where instead they just use God as a cop-out, can make good people do bad things, makes many people feel bad about their sexuality and bedroom practices, etc..... This is why atheist care, we want to see society do better.

Don't get me wrong religions can do good things too, but that does not negate the above negatives.

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Apparently, it does not click with some people that one day, millennium in the past, a piece of inert rock apparently suddenly developed a heartbeat and that thing we call "life" but can't define or put in a box.

We've already discussed this as well.... we have scientific explanations for the origin of life;
"They found that a cell would self-assemble in a simple cocktail of water, fatty acids and units of genetic material. See this website if you would like some more information: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=scientists-close-to-recon .

You can also see many other peer reviewed articles about this:
(The first living systems: a bioenergetic perspective.) http://mmbr.asm.org/content/61/2/239.short
(Bioenergetics and Life's Origins) http://cshperspectives.cshlp.org/content/2/2/a004929.abstract
(The Origins of Cellular Life) http://cshperspectives.cshlp.org/content/2/9/a002212.short?rss=1
And for more information on evolution and the origins of life see: http://www.talkorigins.org/

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Really though, I found this youtube user/channel with an excellent and well documented account of a former Christian's story of how his education and desire for truth brought him to realize he is an atheist.

And I've got spare change in my wallet that says you didn't notice all the YouTube material posted by people explaining why they became Christians. Bet you had no time for them folks, crazy bastards that they must be because they don't see their existence as you do yours.

I have sincerely viewed many of the videos and posts that claim evidence for god and they all have, so far, provided nothing that can be taken as real evidence. Personal experiences and unrepeatable coincidences do not hold much weight if any at all as evidence. If a person has a personal experience and they want to link that to god then fine, but why couldn't that be their own psychology? Their personal experience is not good enough evidence for all of society to take as truth.

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I found this particularly interesting because of the research he presents about the history of the bible and it's authors, and he does provide sources. There is a scientific consensus about the history of the bible and gods.

Same as the "scientific consensus" concerning your Venus Project, right?

Actually, yeah. Venus Project as a whole does not have a "scientific consensus", but is a compilation of many technologies and humanities that do have scientific consensus.

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Are you going to try and tell the audience with a straight face that whatever science concerns the Bible and Judea-Christian beliefs is settled science? Really?

Actually, yeah, if you follow the sources the video series provides you will find that the scientific community has known for a very long time where when and how the bible was written, rewritten numerous times, translated and edited to fit the political agendas of the times. This also reveals how primitive humans used many gods to explain natural observations or political events, and through time was eventually edited to the single "God" we know of today. Really.

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But wait... you saw it on the Internet, so it must be true, right?

No, and just because it's on the internet does not make it untrue. It's very important to follow up on sources and gather as much information about a subject as possible to draw an educated and informed truth with evidence. Weak evidence = weak truth : Strong evidence = Strong truth.

As stated in that video series, how strong our beliefs are should be directly proportional to the amount of real evidence we have for them.

rydnseek wrote:

He seems very sincere.. and very nice.. unlike a lot of our resident atheists here! ..just kidding.. Our guys are nice & sincere, too, i'm sure.

I watched the first clip... then started another.. but i could not pull myself away from mtv & the fast action unbiased news of msnbc... so got bored & surfed somewhere else. A wise man once told me,

'If you cannot explain something simply...then you do not know it well enough.'

I didn't see anything in here that i've not heard before, though i did not hang on every word like many here, it seems.

I bet if i posted a video series proving the existence of god, or at least promoting that idea, no one would watch it. I doubt if i would, either. If there are some great points made, let us know, & we'll be glad to dissect it. But c'mon.. posting a video series? That's like a christian saying, 'you don't know the power of the bible.. if you'd just read it with an open mind, it would change you.'

Now have any of our guys done this? Sat & read the whole bible with an open mind?

Please understand, i am not saying for anyone to do this, just comparing this idea to telling me to watch some sincere, earnest, nicely polished video series.

How about those who watched it all, post the parts that impressed you the most? You can refer to your notes, & put down the ideas & the supporting arguments. I'll be glad to examine them.. with an open mind.. but i don't want to have to sift through hours of video to do it, though the music was very soothing.

First about the author...he seems sincer and intelligent, beyond his years. His story is an interresting one to say the least. Stirred many forgotten memories from my youth...to say the least. He's very easy to listen too. and I think he is still an active member of his church.
I could never explain things more simply, or eloquently, as he does. For me to try and argue his story...wouldnt do either of us justice.
He even defends god better that anyone in this thread has, in my opinion.
I don't have any other athiest style videos or stories to offer or compare to. To be honest it was the first vids, other than blurbs, I have watched.
I would certainly watch your suggested videos, especialy on this topic,..but I would ask that they have merit, that you personaly have experienced. If you saw it and recommend it then cool.
At this point, may I suggest, that you watch the first half of the series, then if after that you remain uninterrested...you gave it a good go.
But I will warn you, as this young author was warned...if you truly are not prepared to learn the truth, it would probably be best if you abandoned this inquisitive form of thinking, for the moment...because once a truth is realized, you can't go back, you are stuck living with that new understanding,
I have read large parts of the bible in my youth. I was a confirmed catholic...graduated sunday school. The vast majority of my peers have been believers. Especialy untill my late teens. I prayed and talked to god regularly.
I also vaguely remember that time when the truth became clear...and all the turmoil, tears, and frustration that went along with that traumatic event. Luckily I was young and moved on quickly.

I by no means wish to cause you anguish...but if truth is what you seek...you should not deny yourself this young mans story and wisdom.

aaronhall555 wrote:

We've already discussed this, but here we go.... the reason so many atheist are speaking out or even have a hatred towards religion is because of the negative things that it does to society.

RIGHT! That's why the majority of people in prison for violent and serious crimes are religious people of various denominations who attended church regularly prior to each time they were imprisoned!

That's why all those shelters, food kitchens, outreach programs, foreign aid projects are funded - and STAFFED - by atheists like you!

Wait a minute... maybe I got all that part backwards.

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Examples are: In some cases people can't hold a position in a public office if they are atheist

That's not an example - that's an unsubstantiated claim. Please provide the name of a person who won public office and was denied the right to occupy that office, if you please. Let's give you... oh... the last 50 years for a time frame to find that person in. (BTW, please see Torcaso v. Watkins, 367 U.S. 488 )

I'm aware that some state constitutions require belief in a supreme being, but I'm also aware that the US Constitution says there shall be no religious test for public office - and as you're no doubt aware, the US Constitution trumps all AND where those state constitutions have ever tried their luck against the US Constitution, they have lost. Without exception.

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children are not allowed to join the Boy Scouts if they are an atheist

Oh my God... the horror!

Let's forget for the moment that, as a PRIVATE organization, the Boy Scouts have constitutional freedom of association rights to determine who they associate with. As do other organizations, who have standards which allow them to refuse applicants who do not share their core belief system.

Let's forget for the moment that I've been even more deeply wronged - the Association of University Women refused my application. Even though I have three degrees - two With Honours no less. All because I'm male, not female. One can have a choice about their decision to be atheist or not, but there isn't much I can do about the fact I was born male.

Yes, let's forget that. Instead, let's concentrate for the moment on the hilarious concept that an atheist actually wants to join a private group, founded on religious beliefs and principles, which begins each meeting with the following oath (somebody help me if my memory is failing - it's been well over 40 years since I was a Scout):

On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God....

So - apparently - atheists are doing everything to get into a private organization where they swear (and presumably then attempt to keep their word and to faithfully execute) to do their duty to God. Atheists don't believe in God, but they want to join the Scouts to gain the benefit of swearing an oath to try and do their duty to a God they don't believe exists in the first place. Oh, that's so rational, so logical!

Too funny. I'm trying to imagine children of Scout age, apparently already having decided they are atheists, who then desperately want to join an organization where they can become one of those members who begin each meeting by swearing an oath to do their duty to God. Why is it the images that raises alternate between "bullshit" and "shit disturbing parents using their children as a tool"?

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politicians think they are doing God's work by trying to stop women from aborting pregnancy or control women in general

"Control women in general"... what, exactly does that mean? Telling them which kind of motorcycle to buy? You just kind of sling stuff around, hoping something will stick if nobody's watching, don't you?

This may be shocking to you, but you don't have to be religious to believe abortion is wrong. And, while you probably can't provide examples of recent bills which attempted to do what you claim - making abortion illegal - opposition to abortion can come from a simple sense of right and wrong. One which doesn't see it as "aborting pregnancy", but rather "killing a baby". With medicine today, premature babies as early as 23 weeks survive - do you NEED to be religious to come to the belief that abortions are essentially killing unborn children? Do you NEED to be religious to be bothered by the medical description for IDE abortion:
A late-term abortion in which the fetus is partially vaginally delivered alive before the skull is collapsed, killing the fetus before complete delivery. One has to wonder "if it isn't a viable child, why do you have to collapse the skull to kill it before completing the delivery?

But... blame it on God. If there were no religion, we all know nobody would have any problem with abortion whatsoever.

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politicians letting their religious ideals guide them in policy making

Oh no! Like Abraham Lincoln you mean? Or George Washington! Those kind of crazy, horrible politicians?

Now why the hell would we want politicians like that again? When - instead - we could have politicians who base their policy making on the Venus Project, like the part where we all just loll around jumping each other's bones while robots do all the work? Or politicians who instead of a religious code of ethics, turned to illegal "recreational" drugs?

Oh wait... we have one of them right now - our cocaine snortin' current president, Barack Obama. Now there's a guy who can show Lincoln and Washington and their religion based ideals and policies how it's done! I can see how that would appeal to those who use and advocate for illegal recreational drugs.

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parents forcing their children to go to church and bible studies in order to set in indoctrination at a young age(before the child can develop an informed/educated decision about religion)

Here's an interesting concept. You rage that the boy scouts won't admit an avowed atheist child as a member - then try and pull a 180 and say a child of that exact same age shouldn't be forced to go to church because they aren't old enough to make an informed/educated decision about religion. Which would include the religion of atheism, of course.

Sometimes known as trying to have your cake and eat it too... So tell us what it will be: is a child old enough to make an informed choice between the religion of a God or the religion of atheism or not? Because if they're informed enough to choose atheism, they sure as hell can't be trotted out a few paragraphs later as being indoctrinated at churches because they can't make an informed decision.

But still... What's even worse, many force their children to go to school in order to set in indoctrination at a young age before they can develop an informed/educated decision about whether they want to be an educated person or not. Others pass on equally horrible values, like duty to country, self sufficiency, disgusting activities like hunting, etc. Some even indoctrinate their little darlings as socialists, bringing them up to believe that their country owes them everything, and anyone who has more than them should just bloody well give them a share.

Parents passing their values and belief systems on to their children! How weird is THAT!

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This is why atheist care, we want to see society do better.

Wrong, and bullshit, bullshit, bullshit.

You want society to operate by YOUR mores and beliefs - exactly as those with religious belief do. Which makes sense, because atheism is every bit as much a religion as Judea-Christian belief, Islam, Wiccans, etc.

But still, if you really do want to see society do better, where are your food kitchens, your outreach programs for the disadvantaged, your equivalent of the Salvation Army, your groups building schools and housing overseas? A few simple weblinks will do - as an avowed atheist, you must be very proud of them.

In the meantime, until you tell us all about what you do to help society on a par with what the alphabet soup of religions do, I call bullshit.

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Don't get me wrong religions can do good things too, but that does not negate the above negatives.

Don't get me wrong, but we know that the fact the vast majority of violent criminals in prisons who do not go to church or observe any religion proves the value to the community of not having religion. The dregs of our society, unsurprisingly, are overwhelmingly people who follow no religious belief whatsoever and most certainly don't look to a being they see as their Creator for guidance and rules to live by.

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"They found that a cell would self-assemble in a simple cocktail of water, fatty acids and units of genetic material. See this website if you would like some more information:

I did. And if you ever actually bothered to read than cut and paste, you'd see the article concerns how a LIVING cell of ORGANIC material replicated itself. None of your cut and paste efforts had ANYTHING to do with how the very first living cell came into being in a universe of inorganic material - by itself, without a Creator to give that first spark of life.

Which still leaves your ass out there, blowing in the breeze, lacking an explanation of how, in a universe of inorganic elements and minerals (organic material not existing until after life existed), some dirt/elements/minerals/whatever, suddenly assumed life and created the very first strand of DNA.

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I have sincerely viewed many of the videos and posts that claim evidence for god and they all have, so far, provided nothing that can be taken as real evidence.

Of course not, your religion of atheism requires you to do this, just as those who have religious beliefs dismiss those who say "there is no evidence God exists, some dirt suddenly came to life one day and created the very first strand of DNA"

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Actually, yeah. Venus Project as a whole does not have a "scientific consensus", but is a compilation of many technologies and humanities that do have scientific consensus.

Which, simplified, means you people cherrypick the bits and pieces which appeal to you while studiously ignoring the whole picture. Scientific consensus? Not hardly. Which might explain why you Venus Project acolytes seem to be deeply lacking in scientists as members.

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Weak evidence = weak truth

And when your belief system is rooted in the belief that, somewhere in this universe, inanimate minerals and elements suddenly developed RNA/DNA, morphed into amino acids, etc... Voila, Life!... well, you have pretty weak evidence for atheism.

Jäger wrote:

And when your belief system is rooted in the belief that, somewhere in this universe, inanimate minerals and elements suddenly developed RNA/DNA, morphed into amino acids, etc... Voila, Life!... well, you have pretty weak evidence for atheism.

It has been noted, and I just refreshed myself, that all living things that we know of are comprised of the active elements carbon, hydrogen, oxygen and nitrogen. Humans are comprised 96.3% of these elements in that precise proportion. Every other living thing we know of consists of those active elements, in those proportions.
Now besides the earth being abundant in those same elements, in those same proportions...the universe as we have observed it so far, appears to consist of those same elements, in those same proportions...since we've only begun to be able to measure such things...I can only imagine one crowd, who would shoot that down as coincidence...if that.
Captain Columbous had no idea what he was going to find...but even his Classical Education told him...it wasn't going to be the edge off the world.
One could measurabley argue that when the elements of life are present...there is a tendency to self assemble. Like gravity collecting dust. But I guess explaining gravity perfectly would help ones defense....not that anyone's denying gravity...at least I hope not.

We are a spec of information in this universe, we don't understand our own planet , but to exploit it.
To assume we are the only living planet in our vast universe would be absurd to some...
...I also think the next ocean to cross will be a little tougher than Chris's...even considering how much he affected our history.
The next frontier awaits us...while we still struggle with the basics at home.

Jäger wrote:

aaronhall555 wrote:

We've already discussed this, but here we go.... the reason so many atheist are speaking out or even have a hatred towards religion is because of the negative things that it does to society.

RIGHT! That's why the majority of people in prison for violent and serious crimes are religious people of various denominations who attended church regularly prior to each time they were imprisoned!

That's why all those shelters, food kitchens, outreach programs, foreign aid projects are funded - and STAFFED - by atheists like you!

Wait a minute... maybe I got all that part backwards.

It would be great to see some stats for the ratio of atheist vs religious in prison and the ratio of atheist vs religious in all population. I wonder which group(atheist/religious) would have the greater ratio of prisoners, to see if it even matters...


FYI, there are many MANY secular charities out there. Heres a few links:
http://www.freethoughtpedia.com/wiki/Secular_charities
http://foundationbeyondbelief.org/
http://www.secularstudents.org/node/2968

It would be nice to see stats on secular charities vs religious charities in regards to their accounting and corruption.

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Examples are: In some cases people can't hold a position in a public office if they are atheist

That's not an example - that's an unsubstantiated claim. Please provide the name of a person who won public office and was denied the right to occupy that office, if you please. Let's give you... oh... the last 50 years for a time frame to find that person in. (BTW, please see Torcaso v. Watkins, 367 U.S. 488 )

I'm aware that some state constitutions require belief in a supreme being, but I'm also aware that the US Constitution says there shall be no religious test for public office - and as you're no doubt aware, the US Constitution trumps all AND where those state constitutions have ever tried their luck against the US Constitution, they have lost. Without exception.

I'm just pointing out that discrimination is taking place. Some might even say if you claim you're an atheist it's political suicide. Torcaso v. Watkins happened because an atheist(Torcaso) spoke out and even took it to the supreme court, while many atheist in the past and present keep their mouth shut about their atheism because of fear of being ostracized, personally attacked, and possibly loosing their job/career/friends/family.

Here's some "cut and paste" articles for you:
http://atheism.about.com/od/attacksonatheism/p/AtheistBigotry.htm
http://www.atheistnexus.org/forum/topics/religion-vs-atheism-in-the-workplace

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children are not allowed to join the Boy Scouts if they are an atheist

Oh my God... the horror!

Let's forget for the moment that, as a PRIVATE organization, the Boy Scouts have constitutional freedom of association rights to determine who they associate with. As do other organizations, who have standards which allow them to refuse applicants who do not share their core belief system.

Let's forget for the moment that I've been even more deeply wronged - the Association of University Women refused my application. Even though I have three degrees - two With Honours no less. All because I'm male, not female. One can have a choice about their decision to be atheist or not, but there isn't much I can do about the fact I was born male.

Yes, let's forget that. Instead, let's concentrate for the moment on the hilarious concept that an atheist actually wants to join a private group, founded on religious beliefs and principles, which begins each meeting with the following oath (somebody help me if my memory is failing - it's been well over 40 years since I was a Scout):

On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God....

So - apparently - atheists are doing everything to get into a private organization where they swear (and presumably then attempt to keep their word and to faithfully execute) to do their duty to God. Atheists don't believe in God, but they want to join the Scouts to gain the benefit of swearing an oath to try and do their duty to a God they don't believe exists in the first place. Oh, that's so rational, so logical!

Again, I'm just pointing out discrimination against atheists. That's fine the BSA is a private organization, luckily there are secular equivalents that do not discriminate against a persons beliefs. The BSA use to get government subsidies until they discriminated against a tax payer's children which lead to atheist speaking out and forcing our government to drop subsidies to the BSA, and the BSA was/is okay with that. And so am I. I grew up with parents with different beliefs, my father is an atheist and my mother a Catholic. My mother's choice was to raise me Catholic and my father just stayed out of it and never talked to me about it nor did he go to church with us. My mother and father both introduced me to scouts, and I loved it, God really was not a big things in the scouts I was in, at least not anything more than a mention in an oath or in a very rare case a prayer, at least in the troops I've been in. While I did witness other troops in our local area where God and religion were more prominent, and I hated visiting their troops, seemed like a wasted of time to me, all the praying and preaching. Only when I started to question everything did I start to find that religion was a fraud, at which time I was able to talk to my father and he at least gave me honest answers, such as "we just don't know" and "there is no evidence there is a god", etc....

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Too funny. I'm trying to imagine children of Scout age, apparently already having decided they are atheists, who then desperately want to join an organization where they can become one of those members who begin each meeting by swearing an oath to do their duty to God. Why is it the images that raises alternate between "bullshit" and "shit disturbing parents using their children as a tool"?

Obviously the parents and peers have a huge roll in the child's belief. The child unknowing and taking the parents word as truth and following suite to peer pressure will take on any belief they are told at a young age, so ignorant parents will pass on ignorant beliefs to their children... Being atheist really has nothing to do with this, but pertaining to God they don't tech beliefs that do not have evidence, at least.

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politicians think they are doing God's work by trying to stop women from aborting pregnancy or control women in general

"Control women in general"... what, exactly does that mean? Telling them which kind of motorcycle to buy? You just kind of sling stuff around, hoping something will stick if nobody's watching, don't you?

It's well known that religion is and has been used to control women... I'll let you look that up.

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This may be shocking to you, but you don't have to be religious to believe abortion is wrong. And, while you probably can't provide examples of recent bills which attempted to do what you claim - making abortion illegal - opposition to abortion can come from a simple sense of right and wrong. One which doesn't see it as "aborting pregnancy", but rather "killing a baby". With medicine today, premature babies as early as 23 weeks survive - do you NEED to be religious to come to the belief that abortions are essentially killing unborn children? Do you NEED to be religious to be bothered by the medical description for IDE abortion:
A late-term abortion in which the fetus is partially vaginally delivered alive before the skull is collapsed, killing the fetus before complete delivery. One has to wonder "if it isn't a viable child, why do you have to collapse the skull to kill it before completing the delivery?
But... blame it on God. If there were no religion, we all know nobody would have any problem with abortion whatsoever.

Not shocking at all, but it's not my place to tell a woman what she can and can not do with her body. There are many reasons why abortion is desired, defects, rape, and the less responsible reason of accidentally getting pregnant at the wrong time. Who knows, it's their reasoning and it's their body and their personal lives, for them to figure out. This is almost like the drug subject in the way that if we treat this as a criminal issue rather than a health issue, we will just cause this to happen underground.

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politicians letting their religious ideals guide them in policy making

Oh no! Like Abraham Lincoln you mean? Or George Washington! Those kind of crazy, horrible politicians?

Now why the hell would we want politicians like that again?

You don't need religion to make good decisions and good polices. Believe it or not but people can have a genuine desire to help society do better without the threat of or the fear of Hell or eternal torture. This is because we know that the better society is the better off we all are as individuals.

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When - instead - we could have politicians who base their policy making on the Venus Project, like the part where we all just loll around jumping each other's bones while robots do all the work?

That's a really skewed perception of the venus project. Of course if people did not have to worry about money surely they wouldn't do anything that is interesting, creative or helpful to humanity.

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Or politicians who instead of a religious code of ethics, turned to illegal "recreational" drugs?

Oh wait... we have one of them right now - our cocaine snortin' current president, Barack Obama. Now there's a guy who can show Lincoln and Washington and their religion based ideals and policies how it's done! I can see how that would appeal to those who use and advocate for illegal recreational drugs.

I was just pointing out that no matter what the law is there will always be drug use and supply, and pointing out that we should be treating drug use as a health issue not a criminal issue.

Nothing about Obama is appealing to me.

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parents forcing their children to go to church and bible studies in order to set in indoctrination at a young age(before the child can develop an informed/educated decision about religion)

Here's an interesting concept. You rage that the boy scouts won't admit an avowed atheist child as a member - then try and pull a 180 and say a child of that exact same age shouldn't be forced to go to church because they aren't old enough to make an informed/educated decision about religion. Which would include the religion of atheism, of course.

Yes, it's a great thing to teach children myths as fact and belief without evidence, just have faith.... and expect them to grow up with critical thinking skills. Yeah, sounds like a great way to a better society. And while we're at it we should tell them marijuana will make them crazy and rot their brains out and cause permanent damage or death, that should teach them to stay away from marijuana, right? NOT. Your comments about atheism as a religion are laughable. Hey did you know bald is a hair color too, and not collecting stamps is a hobby. Yeah, I go to the church of... damn I forgot what it's called, well you get the point, I hope. Come on Jagar, are you serious? Seriously go watch Jesus Camp the documentary and let me know if you think that's a good thing for society.

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Sometimes known as trying to have your cake and eat it too... So tell us what it will be: is a child old enough to make an informed choice between the religion of a God or the religion of atheism or not? Because if they're informed enough to choose atheism, they sure as hell can't be trotted out a few paragraphs later as being indoctrinated at churches because they can't make an informed decision.

A good place to start would be to give the children factual information, try to teach the children without making assumptions or without telling them to just have faith. We should be giving them honest answers like we don't know yet, which leaves the discussion open with the child and maybe someday they'll find the answers to their questions instead of just accepting "God did it, just have faith". Can you imagine how much more intelligent our society could be if this is the approach we took in teaching the youth? Luckily some people do. You'd be surprise at how young a child can start retaining information, and it might as well be useful and factual information. As well as teaching them having an imagination is a good thing, a creative thing, a fun thing, that may eventually lead to practical real life applications.

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But still... What's even worse, many force their children to go to school in order to set in indoctrination at a young age before they can develop an informed/educated decision about whether they want to be an educated person or not. Others pass on equally horrible values, like duty to country, self sufficiency, disgusting activities like hunting, etc. Some even indoctrinate their little darlings as socialists, bringing them up to believe that their country owes them everything, and anyone who has more than them should just bloody well give them a share.

Parents passing their values and belief systems on to their children! How weird is THAT!

Nothing wrong with passing on values and belief systems with societal benefits or real facts to back them up, if the benefits or real facts are not there then they are probably negative to the progression of society.

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This is why atheist care, we want to see society do better.

Wrong, and bullshit, bullshit, bullshit.

You want society to operate by YOUR mores and beliefs - exactly as those with religious belief do. Which makes sense, because atheism is every bit as much a religion as Judea-Christian belief, Islam, Wiccans, etc.

Yeah, atheism is a religion.
http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/ath/blathm_rel_religion.htm (a blurb that helps define atheism)

I don't care if society operates by MY morals or beliefs as they are subjective, as long as no one is forcing theirs on me, which religion has done. This whole discusion we've had I've never forced or threatened anyone to listen to me. I'm just pointing out observation and speculating how things could be, honestly.

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But still, if you really do want to see society do better, where are your food kitchens, your outreach programs for the disadvantaged, your equivalent of the Salvation Army, your groups building schools and housing overseas? A few simple weblinks will do - as an avowed atheist, you must be very proud of them.

In the meantime, until you tell us all about what you do to help society on a par with what the alphabet soup of religions do, I call bullshit.

Well since I've been born in to the lower middle class, I've never had the funding nor the time to really contribute in such a way as opening a soup kitchen or goodwill operation. I've been too busy trying to make a living to survive myself, barely scraping by, paycheck by paycheck. Trying to figure out the world. Who knows maybe in the future I will be able to contribute something to help the least fortunate. While I have alway helped those around me, like giving some friends a place to live for months at a times when they had nothing, volunteering at several charities and fire safety education organizations, helping my neighbors with anything they need, like yard work or home repairs. Having friends over that are worse off than me to give them dinner. So I guess I have done a small part, what I can do in this wonderful crony capitalist monetary system... Hmm if I didn't have to spend all my time in front of a computer to just put a roof over my head and food on the table, maybe I could be out doing more productive things for my fellow humanity. I've put a lot of thought in what I would do if I didn't have to worry about money, and no it wouldn't be to just sit on my ass in front of a computer. I would be helping build sustainable food supplies help with setting up homes to be more economical with food/water/energy to be sustainable and independent, but unfortunately in a monetary system these sustainable/independent technologies are not very profitable in the true sense of sustainability and independence for humanity. And this very discussion could be helping in a sense, maybe it will open some eyes to the bigger picture, that god is a cop-out and how religions and belief in things without evidence can be negative on society.

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Don't get me wrong religions can do good things too, but that does not negate the above negatives.

Don't get me wrong, but we know that the fact the vast majority of violent criminals in prisons who do not go to church or observe any religion proves the value to the community of not having religion. The dregs of our society, unsurprisingly, are overwhelmingly people who follow no religious belief whatsoever and most certainly don't look to a being they see as their Creator for guidance and rules to live by.

Lets see your source for the claim that the vast majority of violent criminals in prison are atheist.

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"They found that a cell would self-assemble in a simple cocktail of water, fatty acids and units of genetic material. See this website if you would like some more information:

I did. And if you ever actually bothered to read than cut and paste, you'd see the article concerns how a LIVING cell of ORGANIC material replicated itself. None of your cut and paste efforts had ANYTHING to do with how the very first living cell came into being in a universe of inorganic material - by itself, without a Creator to give that first spark of life.

Which still leaves your ass out there, blowing in the breeze, lacking an explanation of how, in a universe of inorganic elements and minerals (organic material not existing until after life existed), some dirt/elements/minerals/whatever, suddenly assumed life and created the very first strand of DNA.

Did you even look at the first link about this or the link titled "The Origins of Cellular Life"? Regardless, I can post some better material about this subject.

A video that is easy to follow and gives a good visual at how our common elements started life:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6QYDdgP9eg

Talk Origins - Abiogenesis FAQs:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/abioprob/

And Wiki link for abiogenisis:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis

Science has made it very obvious how life started as natural chemical interaction. The only ones that deny this are people that are closed minded and do not care about the truth or evidence, usually thanks to their religious up bringing and are usually creationist.

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I have sincerely viewed many of the videos and posts that claim evidence for god and they all have, so far, provided nothing that can be taken as real evidence.

Of course not, your religion of atheism requires you to do this, just as those who have religious beliefs dismiss those who say "there is no evidence God exists, some dirt suddenly came to life one day and created the very first strand of DNA"

What do you consider as evidence Jager?

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Actually, yeah. Venus Project as a whole does not have a "scientific consensus", but is a compilation of many technologies and humanities that do have scientific consensus.

Which, simplified, means you people cherrypick the bits and pieces which appeal to you while studiously ignoring the whole picture. Scientific consensus? Not hardly. Which might explain why you Venus Project acolytes seem to be deeply lacking in scientists as members.

How does venus project "cherrypick"? Please explain, as this makes no sense. The venus project and people that agree with it are very aware of the current society, and they are just an organization that is trying to show people how society can utilize already known technologies to give us real freedom without taking it from others and giving people the freedom to live life by spending more time with your family and children instead of having to slave at a computer or monotonous jobs just to put food on the table, which would also give people more freedom to be creative in art or humanities to take on real human problems, medical and technical. Also there are plenty of scientist that have visions or even completely agree with the venus project, Carl Sagan is one of them.

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Weak evidence = weak truth

And when your belief system is rooted in the belief that, somewhere in this universe, inanimate minerals and elements suddenly developed RNA/DNA, morphed into amino acids, etc... Voila, Life!... well, you have pretty weak evidence for atheism.

At least there is substantial evidence that points to life starting as natural chemical interactions and evolution, as opposed to the creation story .

aaronhall555 wrote:

It would be great to see some stats for the ratio of atheist vs religious in prison and the ratio of atheist vs religious in all population. I wonder which group(atheist/religious) would have the greater ratio of prisoners, to see if it even matters...

Well I dropped in on your friends at Wikopedia who pointed to a recent survey which found that 83 percent of Americans identify with a religious denomination, 40 percent state that they attend services nearly every week or more, and 58 percent say that they pray at least weekly.

So... what do you figure the chances are that 40% of prisoners attended church services every week, and 60% prayed at least weekly at the time they were charged, convicted, and imprisoned? I don't think that's very bloody likely; in fact, I think the suggestion that even 10% of them were church going worshippers who regularly prayed to their Creator is a bit of a joke.

Whatever, we're left with the fact that the majority of prisoners are non-worshipping unbelievers just like yourself. Apparently, those who have and live a religious faith seem to manage to stay out of jail, while the non-believers like you keep them crowded.

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FYI, there are many MANY secular charities out there. Heres a few links:
http://www.freethoughtpedia.com/wiki/Secular_charities
http://foundationbeyondbelief.org/
http://www.secularstudents.org/node/2968

So... if I'm a member of Rotary International, then that means all we Rotarians are atheists, because religion is not part of our Charter as it is for the Boy Scouts. Ditto for Doctors Without Borders - every one of them, or at least even just the majority of them atheists?

You really shouldn't be trying to steal the credit belonging to organizations which contain many religious members, and claiming they are an atheist organization doing charity. That's kind of dishonest. I know you don't believe in the Ten Commandments or anything like that, but that's simply wrong. The fact that a charity simply does not include a religious component in its charter, for whatever reason, does not automatically make it an organization of atheists.

But I do see some avowed atheist charity's in your list there. Where does Atheists United run shelters, food banks, foreign aid programs, etc? How about the Atheist Alliance? Or the Godless Americans Political Action Committee? Looks to me like the only people they serve are themselves and their individual interests. But, please do tell us about their orphanages in the third world, their food banks, their shelters, their outreach projects for the homeless, abused women, etc.

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It would be nice to see stats on secular charities vs religious charities in regards to their accounting and corruption.

Right. Because you just KNOW religious people are more dishonest than you atheists - even though you make up the great majority of the prison population.

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I'm just pointing out that discrimination is taking place.

No you aren't. You claimed that in some places people couldn't hold public office if they were atheists. I asked you to provide a name - just one - and called bullshit. I even provided you with a link to a court case you probably weren't even aware of which showed what happened when somebody DID try to exclude an atheist from public office. It got the same treatment as if you tried to exclude a black, a Hispanic, etc from public office - soundly rejected.

So now you're claiming you just wanted to point out that discrimination is taking place, when in fact nobody is being barred from public office for being an atheist as you claimed. You can't provide a name, and that's why I'm calling bullshit yet again.

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Here's some "cut and paste" articles for you:
http://atheism.about.com/od/attacksonatheism/p/AtheistBigotry.htm
http://www.atheistnexus.org/forum/topics/religion-vs-atheism-in-the-workplace

Yes, I know. You're so hard done by - and if you want an unbiased view of the matter... just go to any of those atheist websites and they'll tell you.

Quote :

Again, I'm just pointing out discrimination against atheists. That's fine the BSA is a private organization, luckily there are secular equivalents that do not discriminate against a persons beliefs.

You just can't get it through your skull that a private organization has freedom of association rights. The Boy Scouts aren't discriminating against people like you, and frankly I find it absolutely hilarious that an avowed atheist like you feels put out because you can't join an organization where you'd begin each meeting by swearing to do your duty to God.

I belong to several military and paratrooper organizations. They don't have a religious component in their charter, but they all do require you to have at one time been an operational paratrooper. We don't care if you're black or white, Catholic or atheist, Democrat or Republican, but you must have been a paratrooper. You obviously don't meet that criteria, and therefore we are not going to allow you to join.

So does that mean we're discriminating against you because we don't allow legs to join our groups, just like the Boy Scouts don't allow atheists?

No it doesn't. Groups have the right to choose to associate with others who share similar beliefs and life experiences. You aren't entitled to demand membership, just because you want in, and being told to "piss off" because you don't share the core values of our group is not discrimination.

Quote :

Not shocking at all, but it's not my place to tell a woman what she can and can not do with her body.

So, if she reaches down with a hammer and smashes the skull of that part of her body just emerging, seconds before it would be termed a "newborn infant", then that is none of your business because it is part of her body. Once the entire part has emerged, THEN it is a person of it's own and we have some say in the matter?

Now the hammer bit is a little more graphic than collapsing the skull with medical instruments prior to delivering the now-dead part of her body, but the effect is essentially the same. Which leads me back to wondering just why anyone would presume you have to be religious to find abortion wrong. My grandmother was of the opinion those participating in abortions should be collectively hung in public, and to the best of my knowledge, she raised nine kids on a homestead and never went to church a day in her life.

Quote :

You don't need religion to make good decisions and good polices.

Lincoln gave much of the credit for his actions as president to his faith, so of course your response is he could have done just as well without. One thing we do know: snorting coke, etc and so forth certainly doesn't lead to good decisions and good policies.

Quote :

Believe it or not but people can have a genuine desire to help society do better without the threat of or the fear of Hell or eternal torture. This is because we know that the better society is the better off we all are as individuals.

?????? Say again?

Suffice it to say that it is amusing to hear talk of individualism from somebody enthusiastically endorsing the Venus Project and similar concepts, which are all collectivist to their very rotten cores.

Quote :

That's a really skewed perception of the venus project. Of course if people did not have to worry about money surely they wouldn't do anything that is interesting, creative or helpful to humanity.

What's skewed is the belief system that, if we just got on board with the Venus Project then... Voila! No more worries about money anymore. Problem solved! Nothing to it!

Quote :

I was just pointing out that no matter what the law is there will always be drug use and supply, and pointing out that we should be treating drug use as a health issue not a criminal issue.

When your drug use leads to people breaking into my house, stealing my car, or turning my neighbor's daughter into a crack whore, it's a criminal issue.

Quote :

Nothing about Obama is appealing to me.

Strange. You have so many similar values.

Quote :

Yes, it's a great thing to teach children myths as fact and belief without evidence, just have faith.... and expect them to grow up with critical thinking skills.

Yeah, look at Lincoln, Madison, Jefferson, Locke, Washington, etc... what a bunch of morons.

When they could have been raised to believe that a bunch of elements and minerals, eons ago, suddenly morphed into organic matter, and a life force suddenly appeared within. Cell division and DNA - Eureka: life has began!!!! No evidence that it actually happened, no explanation of how it happened... just have faith that it did happen, because the idea that there is a Creator is just crazy.

Quote :

Your comments about atheism as a religion are laughable.

You clearly haven't noticed, but you're more devoted and obsessed with your atheism than some of the religious members here. In fact, if you bother to review this thread you'll notice that you and some of the other atheists here have put more effort into pushing your religion of atheism than any of our Christian/Judaeism/Wiccan/whatever members have put forth in advocacy of theirs. A religion, simply put, is a belief system, and you have it in spades.

Quote :

A good place to start would be to give the children factual information, try to teach the children without making assumptions or without telling them to just have faith.

It would be nice if somebody could start with the factual information "Here's how a bunch of , lifeless, inanimate elements and minerals suddenly became the very first organic, living, reproducing cell, without any assistance from some sort of supreme being".

Nobody seems to want to take that one on. The kiddies are just supposed to accept that it happened as an article of faith.

Quote :

We should be giving them honest answers like we don't know yet, which leaves the discussion open with the child and maybe someday they'll find the answers to their questions instead of just accepting "God did it, just have faith".

Or instead of just accepting "inanimate elements and minerals suddenly came to life as an organic cell, just have faith".

Quote :

Can you imagine how much more intelligent our society could be if this is the approach we took in teaching the youth?

Yeah. We teach them to accept minerals just... became... life as an article of faith, with no explanation, instead of teaching them there is a supreme being who created life. Boy, what a quantum leap forward that would be!

Quote :

Nothing wrong with passing on values and belief systems with societal benefits or real facts to back them up

Why don't you just take a few paragraphs to explain how, eons ago, here or in some other part of the universe, when all was inanimate at the time, some elements and/or some minerals suddenly combined to become the first living, reproducing (well, we're here, right?) cell complete with DNA. Just some "real facts" to explain your alternative to a religious belief system.

Or do we just believe that it happened as an article of faith of the atheist religion?

Quote :

Well since I've been born in to the lower middle class, I've never had the funding nor the time to really contribute in such a way as opening a soup kitchen or goodwill operation.

And in fact, you were so poor you couldn't even VOLUNTEER in one! Damn! That's poor! I've seen old ladies eking by on their social security cheque, no vehicle, and nothing else who managed to volunteer once a week. I bet you can barely afford to own a motorcycle! I guess that's the explanation for why the atheists don't run food kitchens, foreign aid programs, orphanages, shelters, etc - every single one of them, and collectively, were all born into the lower middle class. What a curse!

Quote :

Did you even look at the first link about this or the link titled "The Origins of Cellular Life"? Regardless, I can post some better material about this subject.

A video that is easy to follow and gives a good visual at how our common elements started life:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6QYDdgP9eg

You are, yet again, presenting unproven speculation as though it were fact. There's at least six other alternate speculative belief systems in the origin of life - you're of the Abiogenesis branch of the Atheist religion, I gather.

Quote :

Science has made it very obvious how life started as natural chemical interaction.

No it hasn't. SOME scientists have SPECULATED on how it might have happened. There's a difference between speculation and proof.

Quote :

The only ones that deny this are people that are closed minded and do not care about the truth or evidence, usually thanks to their religious up bringing and are usually creationist.

So what you're saying is that scientists who reject the teachings of the Atheist Church of Abiogenesis must all be close minded, religious fanatics? That's the only possible reason they could reject The Assumption?

Jäger wrote:

aaronhall555 wrote:

It would be great to see some stats for the ratio of atheist vs religious in prison and the ratio of atheist vs religious in all population. I wonder which group(atheist/religious) would have the greater ratio of prisoners, to see if it even matters...

Well I dropped in on your friends at Wikopedia who pointed to a recent survey which found that 83 percent of Americans identify with a religious denomination, 40 percent state that they attend services nearly every week or more, and 58 percent say that they pray at least weekly.

So... what do you figure the chances are that 40% of prisoners attended church services every week, and 60% prayed at least weekly at the time they were charged, convicted, and imprisoned? I don't think that's very bloody likely; in fact, I think the suggestion that even 10% of them were church going worshippers who regularly prayed to their Creator is a bit of a joke.

Whatever, we're left with the fact that the majority of prisoners are non-worshipping unbelievers just like yourself. Apparently, those who have and live a religious faith seem to manage to stay out of jail, while the non-believers like you keep them crowded.

Quote :

FYI, there are many MANY secular charities out there. Heres a few links:
http://www.freethoughtpedia.com/wiki/Secular_charities
http://foundationbeyondbelief.org/
http://www.secularstudents.org/node/2968

So... if I'm a member of Rotary International, then that means all we Rotarians are atheists, because religion is not part of our Charter as it is for the Boy Scouts. Ditto for Doctors Without Borders - every one of them, or at least even just the majority of them atheists?

You really shouldn't be trying to steal the credit belonging to organizations which contain many religious members, and claiming they are an atheist organization doing charity. That's kind of dishonest. I know you don't believe in the Ten Commandments or anything like that, but that's simply wrong. The fact that a charity simply does not include a religious component in its charter, for whatever reason, does not automatically make it an organization of atheists.

But I do see some avowed atheist charity's in your list there. Where does Atheists United run shelters, food banks, foreign aid programs, etc? How about the Atheist Alliance? Or the Godless Americans Political Action Committee? Looks to me like the only people they serve are themselves and their individual interests. But, please do tell us about their orphanages in the third world, their food banks, their shelters, their outreach projects for the homeless, abused women, etc.

Quote :

It would be nice to see stats on secular charities vs religious charities in regards to their accounting and corruption.

Right. Because you just KNOW religious people are more dishonest than you atheists - even though you make up the great majority of the prison population.

Quote :

I'm just pointing out that discrimination is taking place.

No you aren't. You claimed that in some places people couldn't hold public office if they were atheists. I asked you to provide a name - just one - and called bullshit. I even provided you with a link to a court case you probably weren't even aware of which showed what happened when somebody DID try to exclude an atheist from public office. It got the same treatment as if you tried to exclude a black, a Hispanic, etc from public office - soundly rejected.

So now you're claiming you just wanted to point out that discrimination is taking place, when in fact nobody is being barred from public office for being an atheist as you claimed. You can't provide a name, and that's why I'm calling bullshit yet again.

Quote :

Here's some "cut and paste" articles for you:
http://atheism.about.com/od/attacksonatheism/p/AtheistBigotry.htm
http://www.atheistnexus.org/forum/topics/religion-vs-atheism-in-the-workplace

Yes, I know. You're so hard done by - and if you want an unbiased view of the matter... just go to any of those atheist websites and they'll tell you.

Quote :

Again, I'm just pointing out discrimination against atheists. That's fine the BSA is a private organization, luckily there are secular equivalents that do not discriminate against a persons beliefs.

You just can't get it through your skull that a private organization has freedom of association rights. The Boy Scouts aren't discriminating against people like you, and frankly I find it absolutely hilarious that an avowed atheist like you feels put out because you can't join an organization where you'd begin each meeting by swearing to do your duty to God.

I belong to several military and paratrooper organizations. They don't have a religious component in their charter, but they all do require you to have at one time been an operational paratrooper. We don't care if you're black or white, Catholic or atheist, Democrat or Republican, but you must have been a paratrooper. You obviously don't meet that criteria, and therefore we are not going to allow you to join.

So does that mean we're discriminating against you because we don't allow legs to join our groups, just like the Boy Scouts don't allow atheists?

No it doesn't. Groups have the right to choose to associate with others who share similar beliefs and life experiences. You aren't entitled to demand membership, just because you want in, and being told to "piss off" because you don't share the core values of our group is not discrimination.

Quote :

Not shocking at all, but it's not my place to tell a woman what she can and can not do with her body.

So, if she reaches down with a hammer and smashes the skull of that part of her body just emerging, seconds before it would be termed a "newborn infant", then that is none of your business because it is part of her body. Once the entire part has emerged, THEN it is a person of it's own and we have some say in the matter?

Now the hammer bit is a little more graphic than collapsing the skull with medical instruments prior to delivering the now-dead part of her body, but the effect is essentially the same. Which leads me back to wondering just why anyone would presume you have to be religious to find abortion wrong. My grandmother was of the opinion those participating in abortions should be collectively hung in public, and to the best of my knowledge, she raised nine kids on a homestead and never went to church a day in her life.

Quote :

You don't need religion to make good decisions and good polices.

Lincoln gave much of the credit for his actions as president to his faith, so of course your response is he could have done just as well without. One thing we do know: snorting coke, etc and so forth certainly doesn't lead to good decisions and good policies.

Quote :

Believe it or not but people can have a genuine desire to help society do better without the threat of or the fear of Hell or eternal torture. This is because we know that the better society is the better off we all are as individuals.

?????? Say again?

Suffice it to say that it is amusing to hear talk of individualism from somebody enthusiastically endorsing the Venus Project and similar concepts, which are all collectivist to their very rotten cores.

Quote :

That's a really skewed perception of the venus project. Of course if people did not have to worry about money surely they wouldn't do anything that is interesting, creative or helpful to humanity.

What's skewed is the belief system that, if we just got on board with the Venus Project then... Voila! No more worries about money anymore. Problem solved! Nothing to it!

Quote :

I was just pointing out that no matter what the law is there will always be drug use and supply, and pointing out that we should be treating drug use as a health issue not a criminal issue.

When your drug use leads to people breaking into my house, stealing my car, or turning my neighbor's daughter into a crack whore, it's a criminal issue.

Quote :

Nothing about Obama is appealing to me.

Strange. You have so many similar values.

Quote :

Yes, it's a great thing to teach children myths as fact and belief without evidence, just have faith.... and expect them to grow up with critical thinking skills.

Yeah, look at Lincoln, Madison, Jefferson, Locke, Washington, etc... what a bunch of morons.

When they could have been raised to believe that a bunch of elements and minerals, eons ago, suddenly morphed into organic matter, and a life force suddenly appeared within. Cell division and DNA - Eureka: life has began!!!! No evidence that it actually happened, no explanation of how it happened... just have faith that it did happen, because the idea that there is a Creator is just crazy.

Quote :

Your comments about atheism as a religion are laughable.

You clearly haven't noticed, but you're more devoted and obsessed with your atheism than some of the religious members here. In fact, if you bother to review this thread you'll notice that you and some of the other atheists here have put more effort into pushing your religion of atheism than any of our Christian/Judaeism/Wiccan/whatever members have put forth in advocacy of theirs. A religion, simply put, is a belief system, and you have it in spades.

Quote :

A good place to start would be to give the children factual information, try to teach the children without making assumptions or without telling them to just have faith.

It would be nice if somebody could start with the factual information "Here's how a bunch of , lifeless, inanimate elements and minerals suddenly became the very first organic, living, reproducing cell, without any assistance from some sort of supreme being".

Nobody seems to want to take that one on. The kiddies are just supposed to accept that it happened as an article of faith.

Quote :

We should be giving them honest answers like we don't know yet, which leaves the discussion open with the child and maybe someday they'll find the answers to their questions instead of just accepting "God did it, just have faith".

Or instead of just accepting "inanimate elements and minerals suddenly came to life as an organic cell, just have faith".

Quote :

Can you imagine how much more intelligent our society could be if this is the approach we took in teaching the youth?

Yeah. We teach them to accept minerals just... became... life as an article of faith, with no explanation, instead of teaching them there is a supreme being who created life. Boy, what a quantum leap forward that would be!

Quote :

Nothing wrong with passing on values and belief systems with societal benefits or real facts to back them up

Why don't you just take a few paragraphs to explain how, eons ago, here or in some other part of the universe, when all was inanimate at the time, some elements and/or some minerals suddenly combined to become the first living, reproducing (well, we're here, right?) cell complete with DNA. Just some "real facts" to explain your alternative to a religious belief system.

Or do we just believe that it happened as an article of faith of the atheist religion?

Quote :

Well since I've been born in to the lower middle class, I've never had the funding nor the time to really contribute in such a way as opening a soup kitchen or goodwill operation.

And in fact, you were so poor you couldn't even VOLUNTEER in one! Damn! That's poor! I've seen old ladies eking by on their social security cheque, no vehicle, and nothing else who managed to volunteer once a week. I bet you can barely afford to own a motorcycle! I guess that's the explanation for why the atheists don't run food kitchens, foreign aid programs, orphanages, shelters, etc - every single one of them, and collectively, were all born into the lower middle class. What a curse!

Quote :

Did you even look at the first link about this or the link titled "The Origins of Cellular Life"? Regardless, I can post some better material about this subject.

A video that is easy to follow and gives a good visual at how our common elements started life:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6QYDdgP9eg

You are, yet again, presenting unproven speculation as though it were fact. There's at least six other alternate speculative belief systems in the origin of life - you're of the Abiogenesis branch of the Atheist religion, I gather.

Quote :

Science has made it very obvious how life started as natural chemical interaction.

No it hasn't. SOME scientists have SPECULATED on how it might have happened. There's a difference between speculation and proof.

Quote :

The only ones that deny this are people that are closed minded and do not care about the truth or evidence, usually thanks to their religious up bringing and are usually creationist.

So what you're saying is that scientists who reject the teachings of the Atheist Church of Abiogenesis must all be close minded, religious fanatics? That's the only possible reason they could reject The Assumption?

Jeez Jag, you're usually better versed...but I'll use your numbers.
83% of americans poll reilgious inclination...then your argument should show that more than 17% of prison populations are athiest...to be clear, "believe gods do not exist".
Just because someone isnt a regular church goer or devotee...doesnt, by default, make them anything near an athiest,...though your argument implies that.
Whether someone is devoted to what they do in life would be completely separate from believing in gods...you get that, eh?
You can believe there are gods and lead a terrible life...that would not make you athiest.

And you cannot grasp that a young boy would want and maybe need to be part of , say, Boy Scouts...and the failure of system, that would deny him...only because his, fine, parents don't believe in gods. Sure we should all horde together and keep to our own I suppose...but we tend to be a little more community oriented than that.

The reason we keep preachin about this stuff, evangelicaly, is mainly because we are in a thread about the best religion, in the off topic section, of one of our favourite sites. Anywhere else is limited to minor grumbling and points of order. Though even that may seem overwhelming to some.
Try, childishly, to call atheism a religion if you want. You are well aware of the stigma we associate with that word, and heartedly fling it as an insult...good luck with that...

Doesn't sound like your criminology background helped your arguments in chemistry any...I mean, you stated you have no idea or concept how chemical reactions could have started life...meanwhile we are a harmony of chemical reactions...?
To be honest, I'm not sure if its your imagination or education that is at fault.
Regardless, you leave little room for concession...at least lately...maybe its the heat of the argument gettin to ya?

I was truly dissappointed in the quality of your prison statistics....especially after blasting assumptions yourself.
Even if you had a point, does that mean that because the majority of prison populations are black, that, that is evidence of the level of the black threat as well?...not that your numbers were based on your points to begin with...

mucker wrote:

Let me first start by observing how truly ridiculous it is to have you bitching about the length of my posts - and then to see you turn around yet again and quote one of those posts in its entirety - including the parts you made no reference or reply to (i.e. the vast majority) - followed by your scribblings which are about only a fifth the size of what you prefaced as a quote.

Is editing a quote down to the salient points you wish to respond to beyond your mental capabilities - even as you bemoan long posts? Or do you simply hope including my entire post will make your post appear more scholarly? No such luck; your lack of preparation and reasoning is all too apparent... yet again.

I assure you, I have every faith in your innate ability to unfailingly put your foot in your mouth without quoting my entire posts, most of the content of which you make no reference to in your reply. Go forth boldly.

Quote :

Jeez Jag, you're usually better versed...but I'll use your numbers. 83% of americans poll reilgious inclination...then your argument should show that more than 17% of prison populations are athiest

The problem here isn't how well versed I am - it's your tunnel vision cutting you off at the knees, yet again.

And no, you're not using my numbers. You're selectively picking one while ignoring those specifically identifying those who practice religious faith. To wit:
40 percent state that they attend services nearly every week or more, and 58 percent say that they pray at least weekly.

So, here's my questions: Why did you ignore the numbers showing that 40% of Americans worship weekly? Why did you ignore the finding that 58% of Americans pray weekly to whatever deity/Creator/God/whatever they believe in? Why did you run by that as fast as possible to instead seize on 83% have "religious inclination" - which sure the hell isn't the same thing as regularly worshipping and praying to what you see as your supreme being?,

And the big one of course, which Aaron wasn't up to addressing: do you believe that 40% of the prisoners in American jails worshiped weekly prior to their incarceration? Do you believe that 58% of prisoners prayed at least weekly prior to their incarceration? If you don't believe at least that percentage of prisoners - or more - actively practice religious faith, it appears to me that Aaron's claim that religion has no benefits for society pretty much falls on its ass.

You get that, eh?

40% of prisoners were weekly worshipers prior to being jailed? Bullshit.

Quote :

And you cannot grasp that a young boy would want and maybe need to be part of , say, Boy Scouts...and the failure of system, that would deny him...only because his, fine, parents don't believe in gods.

First, let's address your woefully inadequate comprehension. It probably won't help turn the light bulb on one little bit, but at least we can say we tried.

Aaron bemoaned that a boy who identified himself as an atheist could not join the Boy Scouts. Not his parents - the boy seeking membership. What that boy's parents do and don't believe has nothing to do with it - and they're not the ones who swear an oath to do their duty to God, while wearing a Scout uniform, at the start of every meeting. Or, perhaps this will make it clearer to you: the Boy Scouts don't reject a child applicant because one or more of his parents were atheists. In short, your claim that the Boy Scouts reject children because of the PARENT'S declaring themselves to be atheists is blatantly wrong.

You get that, eh?

Now on this part, you're correct ( a first, I think): I cannot grasp why a boy who declares himself to be an atheist wants and needs to be part of a group whose core values include doing your duty to God. I cannot grasp why that young atheist wants and needs to swear an oath at each meeting to do his duty to God - which would be a false oath, correct?

So please, do help me grasp why an avowed atheist wants to belong to a group with core religious faith as part of its belief system, and why that avowed atheist wants to swear an oath every time they put on a Scout uniform that they will fulfill their duty to God? Whatever for? Practice for a lifetime of being an atheist making and violating sworn oaths to God?

Quote :

Try, childishly, to call atheism a religion if you want. You are well aware of the stigma we associate with that word, and heartedly fling it as an insult...good luck with that...

Stigma? You people are always looking for a shoulder to cry on. What stigma? Maybe like the "stigma" Mormons get? Or the "stigma" Jehovah Witnesses get - and all the jokes that go with it? You figure you get a rougher deal than Jews? I can think of one hell of a lot more trash that comes up with those religions, Catholicism, etc than atheism. You poor bastards are so hard done by in your own minds.

Is this the point where I'm supposed to break down and cry about the stigma and insults I suffer because I'm an agnostic?

Cry all you want, your atheism is your religion. And as I told Aaron, a brief review of this topic will find far more input from you atheists about how there is no God, than you will find input from theists saying there sure as hell is a God.

Quote :

Doesn't sound like your criminology background helped your arguments in chemistry any...I mean, you stated you have no idea or concept how chemical reactions could have started life...meanwhile we are a harmony of chemical reactions...?

And apparently, whatever education you might have had did nothing to help you understand the difference between supposition and fact. For that last word on that, I'll use a quote from one of the sites Aaron so kindly provided to support his claim we know life started as a chemical reaction:
But despite knowing approximately when life first appeared on Earth, scientists are still far from answering how it appeared.

It goes on to say how there are various competing and differing arguments on how it appeared - but none are widely accepted and the origin of life remains one of science's largest gaps in their understanding of nature.

You get that, eh? Especially since those aren't my words, but the scientists Aaron provided links to?

So we have scientists who claim to know when life first appeared on Earth - they just can't explain how (a Supreme Being is, of course, not an acceptable answer even though they don't have one themselves).

Perhaps you shouldn't be wasting your time here, but instead heading off to help explain to this sundry assortment of scientists how it was a chemical reaction - and you can show them how it occurred? Clear that little mystery up for them? Drive a stake through the heart of a belief in a Creator?

Quote :

To be honest, I'm not sure if its your imagination or education that is at fault.

Son, when you so clearly don't know the difference between supposition and settled science, you really shouldn't be bringing up the subject of education too much. Imagination, obviously, but not education.

Quote :

Regardless, you leave little room for concession...at least lately...maybe its the heat of the argument gettin to ya?

What is there to concede to people who think there is logic in an atheist wanting to join a group with a core belief in God, so they can swear to do their duty to God each time they put that uniform on.

What is there to concede to people who claim science has somehow or other determined that life began as a chemical reaction, when the very scientists they are linking to say that science is still far away from determining how life first appeared.

Concede to such irrational and inconsistent thought? Nah, I don't think so.

Quote :

I was truly dissappointed in the quality of your prison statistics....especially after blasting assumptions yourself.

Please feel free to make the declaration that the percentage of people who worship their Creator and pray to their Creator on a weekly basis is just as great or greater inside prisons as outside of prisons.

Logic and reason have never been your strong points, have they?

It has just occurred to me that there is one other large difference between theists and atheists. Theists beliefs center around hope and promise. Atheist beliefs center around a belief system encompassing how nobody likes them and how hard done by they are.

Jäger wrote:

mucker wrote:

Let me first start by observing how truly ridiculous it is to have you bitching about the length of my posts - and then to see you turn around yet again and quote one of those posts in its entirety - including the parts you made no reference or reply to (i.e. the vast majority) - followed by your scribblings which are about only a fifth the size of what you prefaced as a quote.

Is editing a quote down to the salient points you wish to respond to beyond your mental capabilities - even as you bemoan long posts? Or do you simply hope including my entire post will make your post appear more scholarly? No such luck; your lack of preparation and reasoning is all too apparent... yet again.

See what I mean...a well versed arguement...except for the lil bit o math maybe.
I hate when I am hypocritical...I can't imagine how devoted christians bare it, considering the, quite simple, consequences. I guess that's one of the sacrifices for takin the high road?

I remember many good lessons from beavers, cubs, scouts and cadets...the religious context seems to have faded...I suppose i may have been well conditioned at the time...I'm mean I started young, being conditioned for the pack, so what wasnt relevant is remembered more as a background noise, rather than a traumatic event.
I suppose now a days, my mind may be less pliable to deal with such social events.

Anywho, I looked up statistics on athiests in U.S. prisons from freethoughtpedia...doesn't quite reflect what you are saying...so i will give you a quick link for reference.

http://freethoughtpedia.com/wiki/Percentage_of_atheists#Atheists_In_Prison

and another...

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2012/03/29/what-percentage-of-prisoners-are-atheists-pew-forum-offers-an-answer/

http://www.adherents.com/misc/adh_prison.html#dichotomy

and many more...but can't seem to find your numbers argued, probably gotta look alot farther down the list.

Again...maybe I got caught in the heat of the arguement....What was your statistcal/measureable point?

I guess it would also be interresting to test your math accuracy of who rants more on this forum overall, athiests or believers...would it just be heated post counts, or number of different posters that would mean more to you?

And I also suppose, I have a healthier, practiced, imagination than you, now that you mentioned it...so I'll have to be patient.

Jäger wrote:

So, here's my questions: Why did you ignore the numbers showing that 40% of Americans worship weekly? Why did you ignore the finding that 58% of Americans pray weekly to whatever deity/Creator/God/whatever they believe in? Why did you run by that as fast as possible to instead seize on 83% have "religious inclination" - which sure the hell isn't the same thing as regularly worshipping and praying to what you see as your supreme being?,

I guess it is because I believe there is a fundamental difference in the reasoning a person has...depending on whether they believe gods can exist or not.
It affects reasoning more, than a believer, has ever realized, in my opinion.

Speaking as a reformed believer.

Life is about answering questions...some a believer will never entertain.
Avoiding a tough job may feel acceptable in the short term...but doesnt get the job done.

If you are comfortable avoiding questions...that's you...not me.