- Dancamp wrote:
- Altough it true that Khortal is the founder of the race and that he did it in Germany, the actual standard has been developped in France. Now it is considered a french race because that's where most of it's developpment has been made since the beginning of the 20th century. In a century it might be in Canada if there is more activities on this race here than in France.
Thank you for schooling me on the breed that I have owned for a little over 20 years now and had dogs which were involved in breeding programs. How long have you owned Griffons, incidentally?
I am aware that the French have a propensity for claiming to have invented many things they didn't, not unlike the old Soviet Union. The fact remains that the breed was developed in Germany, by a Dutchman, in conjunction with a group who were in the majority Dutch and German. The breed standard has not markedly changed since Korthals wrote it at the formation of the first international Griffon club.
The only real "development" of the WPG breed in the 20th century was the saving of the breed after WWII - by Americans, with an American breeding program, using dogs they brought back from Germany. The French and Dutch at that time - quite understandably - were facing their countries lying in ruin and had bigger things on their mind than running around looking for suitable purebred Griffs to establish French and Dutch kennels.
I might also note that, despite the propensity of some kennels to concentrate on using all or almost entirely all French bloodlines in their breeding programs (some of whom you may be familiar with), the Griffons that are taking top honours in NAVHDA, Canada, the US, etc are not French only/majority Griffons. Perhaps there is a conspiracy at work there, but those are the results. The fact remains that the Wirehaired Pointing Griffon is a field dog, not a show dog, and the test of the breed happens with organizations like NAVHDA that field test ability, not just look at conformation. In the shoot to retrieve and field trials - more of the real world - I also cannot help but notice that the Griffs doing the best are not predominantly French in bloodline. You will see the name "Herrenhausen" a lot, a long with "duckpond", "wet acres", etc. And a lot of dogs who have Furst in their bloodlines.
I might add as an aside that dog shows and kennel clubs have been instrumental in destroying once fine field breeds like Irish Setters, Cocker Spaniels, etc. One reason why I stay away from kennels who are involved in breeding that includes dog shows in mind. Conformation, CERF, OFA, Penn Hip, etc are vitally important, but you don't need a dog show for that, and I can't help but notice some Griffs getting show championships are considerably bigger than the breed standard.
This is not to say that predominantly French WPGs are not good Griffons - they are no better and no worse than the average Griff anywhere else, and the result has more to do with the breeder carefully choosing the dogs he breeds, not the country they are from. But to suggest the Griff is a French breed which is at the point it is today due to French breeding and French Griffs is simply flailing away in the face of fact.
In fact, many hard core WPG affectionados won't have anything to do with a French griffon due to the tan gene, due to breed outcrosses slipped into the French Griffon lines back in the 70's sometime. The French have been dealing with that for years, and now it is fairly routine in North America to DNA test any Griffon intended for use in breeding for the tan gene. The wonders of DNA testing uncover what breeders could hide for years - and not just in WPGs.
Suffice it to say the vast majority of WPG breeders and owners don't consider the French introduction of another breed resulting in the "tan gene" to be a very positive development by some French breeders. That is the very reason the American clubs booted the breeders who insisted on the Cesky Fousek outcrosses - their Griffoos are not recognized by the AKC or any other kennel club, even though they can be very good field dogs as well.
- Quote :
- If you search under french griffon all references are pointing to the Khorthal. The griffon that is recognized as the dutch is pretty close to the german wirehaired pointer. They call it the Deutsch Drahtaar or DD. Both the german and deutsh are highly energetic dogs not made for everyone as they are as easiky trainable as the Khorthal.
I will take pretty strong exception with anyone who claims that a Drat is just as biddable and as easily trainable as a WPG. I spend considerable time working with the local NAVHDA chapter and have ample time to watch both breeds in training. In fact, my wife just ran a NAVHDA test for this region and I was lucky enough to see lots of different breeds doing the same test. Anyone who claims the average Drat is as easily trainable as the average Griffon will have to prove that to me.
Which is also not to sat the Drat is an inferior breed. But it is definitely not as biddable or as easy to train as a WPG - it simply does not have the same drive to please its master.
Let's also note that nothing binds the kennel club of any country from writing breed standards however they choose. The Dutch can establish their own breed standards for WPGs (or any other breed), as can the French, the Belgians, the Canadians, the Americans, etc. When you look at the breed standard laid down by Korthals and his group when he established the first international Griff club, you will see that present day kennel clubs elaborate on those descriptions somewhat, but do not differ much from it.
Rather than go on much more on the significant differences between the two breeds, perhaps it is easier to simply reference a page that Barbara has up at her kennel website:
Breed differences
- Quote :
- I hunted with a friend that owns a Korthal.
Actually, it is probably a Wirehaired Pointing Griffon. But what's in a name? I suspect the name is popular in Quebec, but you won't find them being called "Korthals" anywhere else in Canada, or the US.
However, due to the ongoing confusion being caused by the outcrossing people calling their dogs Wirehaired Pointing Griffons as well (you can't copyright the name), there is indeed an increasing movement to call the true Wirehaired Pointing Griffon the Korthals Griffon. The name Korthals chose for the breed he developed was "Wirehaired Pointing Griffon", and it was under that name that he developed the breed standard that is largely unchanged today. It was only after his death to cancer that some people chose to honour him by referring to the breed as the "Korthals Griffon".
- Quote :
- I own a Lab and uses it to explore the ground and to retrieve. I found the Khortal to be a closer hunter than my Lab or any other pointer that I saw before eccept the Brittany. It is a plus in close cover. Here we don't have pheasant, we concentrate on grooses, partridges and woodcocks. The Khortal is much more versatile than the Lab. The Lab surpases it just for retrieving in cold water.
Our Griffs hunt out to about 200 yards in open country - which is about as far out as I want them to hunt when you have to run to the dog before wild pheasants or chukars will run out from underneath the dog. In close cover hunting ruffies, spruce, and blue grouse, they stay within sight - which again, is what I think a walking hunter's dog should do.
Griffs have the reputation of being bootpolishers with many non-Griff owners, and I tend to suspect that much of that has more to do with their training than their natural inclination as hunters. They certainly aren't English Pointers, but there is no reason a Griff won't cover ground well and adjust to the ground being hunted as required. My personal belief is that if a Griff is always hunting just off the toes of his boots, then all he is doing is showing you what you told him you wanted him to do. I have seen GSPs turned into boot polishers by their owners, which only confirms my theory in my mind, as they are generally big running dogs.
And labs are quite resilient as well. Fifteen years ago, people were called wackadoodles who claimed they had developed a pointing lab. Yet now, there are several dozen kennels breeding pointing labs. I have seen numerous of these dogs, and they are indeed reliable pointers in the field. Which makes them very versatile indeed.
- Quote :
- And take no offense Jager if I suggested a kennel. There are a lot of good one all across the world and I didn't mean to imply that the one I proposed is the best. It is just that I know some dogs that came from the place and they are all very good hunting dogs.
No, that's fine.
It's just that there are a lot of fine breeders out here in the West, and their dogs do a lot better in NAVHDA and similar tests than the one you mentioned. I also see dozens of their pups - the great and the not so great - so I have a pretty large exposure to Griffs that most other people who don't own or aren't involved in Griff breeding would have.
Enough of this. It's a great day for riding, flyfishing, and a little bit of ruffy hunting on the side.
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