BAHH, i was hoping this would get fixed

I don't know what America needs as it's not mine to decide since I'm not an american.

I do participate in the political debate in my country. And if a government does something that they are supposed to do there are courts and special commissions to take care of that.

And by the way I pay my share of taxes. I'm part of the 20% that pays 80% of the total income tax. I'm not moaning to recieve more from other tax payers since I pay a lot more than I receive. I'm happy to live in an area where there are not a lot of poor people. And I'm proud to say that the poor people that live around us are being taken care of. I agree that some people abuse the system and we're always fitting our systems to identify them and get them back to work.

Our way of life is still far from being perfect and it keeps us working on it.

DANCAMP- Spoken like a true adult! Capitalism makes winners- and losers- of us all. It is our DUTY to take care of those that cannot escape the bottom of the socio-economic ladder. The idea that people fail due to a universal laziness is offensive to me. Not all people have equal abilities. My wife worked with employees at a supermarket. She said some of them were not capable of doing anything more difficult than bagging groceries. They were NOT lazy. Some walked a decent distance to get to work. They also made near-minimum wage. They will never be a ble to afford a car, even a used one. Poverty is not a lifestyle that most of us choose. Those that abuse the system should be weeded out but they are still a small part of the whole.

"Our way of life is still far from being perfect and it keeps us working on it. " BRAVO! Well said.

TBird1 wrote:

It is our DUTY to take care of those that cannot escape the bottom of the socio-economic ladder.

Wrong.

A duty is an obligation. Nowhere in our constitutional history or documents is there any duty to provide everyone with some sort of guaranteed economic outcome. Any more than we have a duty of care to provide for abandoned pets, work on conservation projects, volunteer, etc. And it is telling that "take care of" usually revolves around the concept of "give money", rather than spend time with, mentor, give a hand up, etc - it's always about giving a hand out.

Many people feel a personal moral imperative to help those with a lower income, abandoned animals, the local recycling association, etc. I would certainly hope that moral imperative is widespread. But turning a personal moral imperative into a duty of all to provide financial handouts - compelled by government with threat of force - is not charity, it is not care. It is simply a lifetime of handouts - usually not with any accompanying time spent with "the unfortunate". Give some money = feel good.

The assumption that they are at the bottom of the economic ladder, alas, because they are simply too stupid or too inept is insulting - particularly to those who decided not to settle for a life of mediocrity as long as somebody else would pay the bill. Many people will happily accept a life at the low end of the economic ladder when it comes with a guarantee of not having to get up every morning to go to a job - a job that perhaps you don't even like.

Quote :

The idea that people fail due to a universal laziness is offensive to me. Not all people have equal abilities.

No they don't. But the fact you don't have equal abilities - or equally as common, an equal worth ethic - doesn't mean you're incapable of supporting yourself if you want to. It also doesn't mean that, since you don't have an equal ability, you should be subsidized the rest of your life because you aren't the next Warren Buffet.

The idea that the poor are poor largely through no fault of their own is whimsical, amusing - and it makes those who advocate this and attempt to reward it enablers of poor remaining poor. And even worse, enable those people to raise their children with no hope, the attitude that if you're poor you're poor, but society will look after you, and a life on the dole is good enough.

They simply can't support themselves? In most cases, BS.

I worked with mentally disabled people for a couple of years as a volunteer. I see mentally handicapped people, some with physical handicaps as well, living by themselves with the help of an aid worker, living in an assisted living setting - and holding down jobs and paying most or all of their own way. And, incidentally, getting the same feeling of accomplishment out of their work achievements that most of us here get at our jobs. When I see somebody with Downes Syndrome complicated by a mild case of spinal bifeda holding down a job and living with minimal assistance, I'm supposed to believe some able bodied male or female without anything remotely resembling those kind of mental and physical challenges, somehow or other just can't even make the effort to support themselves? BS.

Ten minutes south of our house is the Hutton Ranch mall complex. Anybody who has been there sees that there is usually somebody begging at every one of the access roads every single day. "Need food", "starving", "money for food, please". I don't believe in facilitating laziness, but I do believe in a hand up. We regularly can use somebody doing light labour around our small place - at this time of the year, for example, combing through the woods surrounding the house and pulling all the deadfall branches out before the grass and leaves appear to keep the fuel load down. I regularly offer the beggers the same deal - $50 for a day of yardwork, we provide breakfast, lunch, supper, a place to have a shower and do their laundry. Know how many people over the last five years have accepted that offer of food, washing, and money in exchange for a day of light labour? Exactly zero - I have been snarled at and told to fuck off, however, with great regularity. I still make the offer, but mostly for amusement's sake, because the neighbor's kids are happy for the work.

These people begging, telling me to fuck off when offered food and money in exchange for work, are simply people of less ability, incapable of supporting themselves and working for a living? So disadvantaged they can't figure out how to pick sticks off the ground? No, they're just lazy and unwilling to try - and enablers in our society taught them that is an acceptable way to go through life.

Can't get ahead, can't get a break, can't get an education? Really?

When did the military stop hiring - not every military job involves combat arms, much less the intellect to fly an airplane or be an engineer on a nuclear sub. The military has its truck drivers, cooks, garbage disposal people, etc as well. All these "socially disadvantaged" aren't even intelligent enough to be a truck driver? BS. What they didn't have was the willingness to take jobs they didn't like for a time, in exchange for the money/benefits to allow them to move on to something they do like or find less annoying.

We went through the oil patch a few weeks ago while going to visit my brother. The sign outside A&W offered $14/hr for new employees - so much good paying work in the patch that fast food restaurants have to pay that to get people who would otherwise go work in the patch. A MacDonald's closing at 1900 hrs because they didn't have enough employees to stay open later, period. That kind of work available, and I'm supposed to believe that a bunch of young twenty-something males are so incapable of finding work that the only thing open to them is hanging around on street corners or parks playing basketball between handouts? Bullshit.

The real issue is that most simply aren't willing to make the effort or do any job they don't like. And because in many cases they were raised by parents who did exactly the same thing, why would we expect them to do any different? We always talk about how domestic violence and many other behaviours are learned at home by kids observing their parents, why would we wonder when somebody becomes a shiftless bum after spending the first sixteen years of their life watching their parents be shiftless bums - and be rewarded by the enablers in our society for being shiftless bums. Boy, that sure does them a favour - settle for a low income existence your entire life, raise your kids with the same values.

Talk about an insult to those who didn't settle for mediocrity and worked their way out of poverty. As far as that goes, many of us here come from low income families and worked ourselves out of it. We didn't wait for luck, we made our own. And yet, people talk about being low income as though it were some sort of incurable, lifelong disease from which there is no escape, and so, we must fund the poor dears through there entire, weary lives. For most people, improving their lot is possible, and if they won't motivate themselves, then society should be supplying the motivation - along with the dole.

For those who have a demonstrable need for being supported the rest of their lives by the productive members of society, no problem. But if there is no physical or mental reason why you can't work - including at those dreaded minimum wage jobs so many of us started with - then if taxpayers are going to fund your life, they have also some right to have a say in your lifestyle and where you spend eight hours a day, five days a week. Welfare should never be seen as a lifelong holiday, absent of any requirement to work - its demeaning, if nothing else. You want your taxpayer funded welfare cheque? Then do work for your society in exchange for that cheque.

Putting people who can't reasonably establish a physical and/or mental inability to support themselves (in which case they should be under some sort of care) on a lifetime vacation, money for nothing and the cheques are free, is stupid on so many levels you could spend months pointing it out. The assumption that they're "not capable of any better" is demeaning, insulting, and treats them as though they were born with some inferior grade of DNA. It's pretty bad when a kid with Downe's Syndrome can find a way to hold down an ordinary job and pay most of his own way through life, but somebody who is perfectly healthy physically and mentally apparently isn't "capable of doing anything". A refugee from another country can land here not able to even speak English, without a pot to piss in, and make a success of themselves in the space of a decade through sheer hard work and effort, and yet people born here aren't capable of doing anything more than hang around in the 'hood..

I have seen too many fine, outstanding ordinary people come from a position of disadvantage and build successful, contributing lives for themselves out of nothing to ever buy into the idea that others really are doing their best, but it's just hopeless. They may not become household names, they may never own a vacation home at the ski resort where the ski bums flock to spend their welfare cheques as part of their helpless and hopeless existence, but they support themselves and they contribute to the fabric of their communities. As good examples, if nothing else.

If people want dole out their money for nothing to others, that's fine. But don't try and get the government to force all of us to fund lazy slugs while telling us they simply have no other options.