WRR vs KTM 500 EXC: dual sport shootout

Okay, so it wasn't a tire-shredding shootout.  It was ten hours of riding about a 50/50 blend of forest service and old logging roads and slab.  No single track.  If you want a sense of the riding conditions, it was a Montana loop: starting in Whitefish, up the gravel to upper Whitefish Lake, Red Meadow Lake, the North Fork road to the Canadian border, then west to pick up the slab (and gas) at Fortine, then over to Trego and down the single lane slab forest slab to the Fisher River and then the Kootenay River, Libby (more gas), some highway until the turnoff to the gravel to go up and do the lake tour ending at Little Bitterroot Lake, back on the highway at Marion, and then home via the slab to Kalispell and Whitefish.  We swapped back  and forth between the bikes throughout the ride - mostly at his request after the first switch.

The CliffsNotes summary: you can have the 500 EXC, I'll stick with my 250 WRR.

The finer observations from the day:

First, and obviously, the 500 EXC has gobs more power.  If a large segment of your riding enjoyment throughout the day is connected to what the bike does when you wick the throttle, then the 500 may be your preferred choice.  It wheelies on demand, and both the light weight and the instant-on power do remind me of my motocross days.  You can get going really fast, REALLY REALLY fast.  I was playing around with the throttle on a few short stretches of old logging roads and suddenly found the next corner coming up at what looked awfully sudden.  Glanced down at the speedo - 75mph... full binders and I just barely made it around the corner without putting buddies KTM in the weeds.  Brakes work good too!  So if power and acceleration is where your fun factor is at on a bike, the KTM is probably a better bike for you.

And while just rambling the countryside, the KTM gets just as good fuel economy as the WRR.  Which is a big deal with little gas tanks in country where gas stations can be a long, long distance apart.  And who could complain with instantly losing 55 lbs off the bike's weight?

Beyond that, if you do truly ride 50/50 dual sport or anything like that, and mostly at "normal" speed while checking out the country you're riding through, my impression is the WRR is the clear victor.  Nobody needs to explain that KTMs are high quality bikes, but for riders like me and this kind of riding, they fall behind the WRR.  The things I didn't like.

First... holy crap, is this KTM ever tall for inseam-challenged people.  Left both my feet paddling around in the air while my toes scrabbled for some contact with the ground.  My inseam is 28", so that might be irrelevant for the longer legged folks out there.  Is there an easy way to lose a bunch of seat height off the KTM?  I don't know. I do know it made a quick stop to take a picture without getting off the bike a pain in the ass.

Second... after riding the WRR, the KTM feels like it vibrates and shakes like a mixmaster.  Never mind vibration in the handlebars - the buzzing through the pegs is annoying as hell.  If this wasn't a brand new bike that had just been back to the KTM dealer for its first service check, I'd be wondering if the engine were about to fall out of the mounts.

Third, the narrow KTM seat is actually a 2"x6" cleverly upholstered with a sexy looking seat cover - factory trade secret.  The  seat on my mountain bike is far more comfortable.  For those who are on the pegs all the time riding technical stuff, this is probably a positive feature.  For those who end up riding a lot of distance where there is no reason/need to be on the pegs, this becomes painful in a hurry.

I didn't find the suspension performance noticeably different between the two bikes.  But we weren't going like hell through the potholes and washouts either, and I just had my front forks redone with a Gold Valve kit, so I have better than stock suspension in my WRR as well.

I didn't notice the KTM to be noticeably louder than my stock WRR exhaust - but again, we weren't running hard on the gas either.  It was louder under hard acceleration, but not all that much in my judgement.

On the slab, coming from the WRR to the KTM, riding the KTM was outright annoying.  The WRR in comparison felt like a full on highway bike... funnily enough, every time we were on the slab was when my KTM buddy was most insistent that we swap again...  However, it goes without saying that the KTM had gobs more acceleration and a higher top end - a real benefit at the end of the day when we were trying to get home in a hurry on the uphill climb through traffic past McGregor Lake and the assortment of land yachts.  If we'd just been idling down that particular piece of highway at 60mph, probably wouldn't have noticed it much.  Trying to get home at 75mph through that stretch and traffic, there was a very big difference that favoured the KTM when speed surpassed riding comfort/enjoyment.

Anyways, I'm left still quite happy with my choice of the WRR for my dual sport/backcountry tourist riding.  It definitely is the better bike of the two for that kind of all day riding in comfort, day after day after day.  I've seen that with my buddy so far - at the end of a long day of riding, I'm pretty much still fine and he's pretty much done.  Reinforces my belief that the WRR is an underrated, awesome bike, for dual sport riding despite the complaints about its weight and power.

My guess is that maintenance on the KTM will be more frequent/involved than the WRR.  Will it be as trouble free over the mileage/years I have on my '08 WRR?  My guess is probably not, but I guess we shall see.

Having said that, for those who place a premium on raw power, acceleration, and performance with less interest in dual sport riding, the KTM is probably a bike they would be happier with, and they probably won't even notice the things I didn't like.

All I know is I know 6 people with KTM's. Including 2 who are on a round the world trip right now. Every single one of them have had massive, expensive, motor apart problems with their machines. And of all the Yamaha's I've had, and I own 4 right now, not one has ever had a problem more serious than a flat tire.

You buy a Ferrari, you deal with the issues...

Tell the ktm owner to ugrade his seat.

After that he wont want to switch bikes all the time lol.

The reason I went with a wrr instead of a ktm is the long term maintance, ktms need pistons at 100 hours and cranks at 200, they're race bikes with plates not ture dual sports. I dont like rebuilding motors every year or two so I bought the wrr which is known to last a long long time. Im slow enough that a revalved wrr works good enough offroad and I dont miss the extra power the race bikes have, I've riden a bunch of much faster race bikes and I ride the same speed as I do on the wrr, its not holding me back lol.

Biglake wrote:

Tell the ktm owner to ugrade his seat.

After that he wont want to switch bikes all the time lol.

Then he'll only have the mixmaster vibrations coming through the bars to notice.  Oh, and the mixmaster vibrations coming through the pegs to notice...  And the rough ride on the slab while doing 75mph for an hour or two to notice...

Actually, I have no idea whether what I don't like bothers him or not.  For all I know, he sees his bike as perfection personified - and if so, I'm glad.  Not into running down other guys' bikes, even if they aren't my first choice.

To make it even more interesting, this is his first dirt/dual sport bike.  Ran street bikes about 25 years ago when he was in Florida, apparently, and figured it was time to get a bike again... but now he's in Montana with all the dirt roads and mountains, so decided a dual sport was the way to go.  The rational behind the KTM is he figured this would be his next and last bike, so he wanted to buy "high end" so he wouldn't be thinking he needed to upgrade in a few years.  Came down to the KTM or a Husky, apparently - I have no idea if Penco suggested the WRR to him, but I know they had one on the floor when he bought the KTM instead of the Husky.

Quote :

The reason I went with a wrr instead of a ktm is the long term maintance, ktms need pistons at 100 hours and cranks at 200, they're race bikes with plates not ture dual sports. I dont like rebuilding motors every year or two so I bought the wrr which is known to last a long long time. Im slow enough that a revalved wrr works good enough offroad and I dont miss the extra power the race bikes have, I've riden a bunch of much faster race bikes and I ride the same speed as I do on the wrr, its not holding me back lol.

I didn't look too hard at KTMs when I moved back where the riding was decent enough to get back into the dirt.  A brief look at Huskys brought on by fond memories of riding a WR250, but that ended pretty quickly when it became apparent todays Husky ain't the Husky of the 70's in what it's aimed at.  My mechanical ability and interest pretty much left the building when I got tranferred to the craplands and the Ossa, Bultaco, Can-Am, and a brace of Yamaha's went on the sales block prior to the move - when you can watch your dog run away for three days, not much interesting motorcycling to be had.  As those names may suggest, that means wrenching for me was back in the days of dirt simple stuff and a long, long time ago.

So I concentrated on inexpensive and stone cold reliable.  And in my mid-50's back when I bought the WRR, I knew for a fact I wasn't going to be riding like my hair was on fire anymore.  The WRR fit the bill for comfort, inexpensive, and reliable.  If it had just a scootch more power I'd like it better - but I only notice the lack of power when trying to get home at 70+ mph when there's lots of hills and fast passes on short passing lanes to get by land yachts are needed.  I don't encounter that very often, so not that big a deal, although the KTM can obviously handle that with lots left over.  And 50 lbs lighter would be nicer too - but again, I very rarely drop the bike and the places I go I'm not wrestling it through obstacles and doing the enduro thing, so the weight doesn't matter other than the penalty on the available power.

Actually, as far as weight goes, the KTM didn't feel noticeably lighter than the WRR.  But I wasn't manhandling it around either - if I had been, maybe the weight difference would have been more noticeable.  Kudos to the WRR for carrying that extra weight well, I guess.

If he does need service at those intervals, even when just poking around in the mountains, then I truly feel sorry for him.  In a good riding year, that would translate for me into a piston job every month, crank the second month for July and August.  Figure pistons x 4, crank x 2 over the whole riding season?  Forget that crap!  And I don't see much in the way of tools in his garage, either...

Anyways, he seems pretty happy with his choice and I'm really happy with mine, so we both chose right, I guess.

Its an interesting comparison, but the two bikes couldnt be more different.  Blueberries to Oranges really.  The 690 would more fit the bill for a dual sport.  

As you noted, the 500 is not a true dual sport, its an off road race bike that happens to be street legal.  The motor is finely engineered for impressive bursts of power, the suspension is sprung, valved, and set up to take huge hits, jumps, and fly through whoops at warp speed, not to cruise trails or the highway.  Think YZ 450 suspension.  What its built for it does very, very well.  

As far as pistons every 100 hours, my KTM RFS 450 has 15,000 miles on it and the top end is a little down on power, but still good.  Its been an incredibly reliable Baja bike.  This would be a similar bike to the WR 450.  Will probably do a fresh top in another 5,000 miles.  But the RFS motor doesnt produce the power of the new 500, and my race pace is slower than most folks that are bumping off the rev limiter full time.  Its still an off road race bike though.

Someone making the comment that everyone he knows that has traveled on a KTM has major engine problems has not been my experience.  I've ridden my 990 through many countries over 60,000 miles, the majority of that off pavement, with only normal wear items.  My buddy's 690 has over 50K miles on the clock and he has replaced the fuel pump once, the only issue he has had with the bike.  As usual, internet reputation will have little in common with real world experience. Yamahas are bikes too and they break, just like all bikes. I towed my buddy's YZ 426 out of the bush in Baja after 3rd gear exploded in a sand wash and shut him down, permanently.

Any race bike, Yamaha, Honda, Suzi, KTM will require relatively frequent top ends, especially if you race them properly.  They are high strung purpose built motors, and that purpose is not for cruising fire roads or trail riding the back country.

All that said, I think its a good comparison to bring to light.  The question that people in the market for a bike have to ask themselves truthfully is what they will actually be doing with the bike.  If youre going to race or ride exclusively off road (not only off pavement) at a good clip, a race bike may fit the bill.  If your going to cruise around, or travel dirt roads, and ride off road at a slower pace, the WRR does it just fine and makes a lot more sense.  

Different tools for different jobs.

Great conversation. In all seriousness, I've been contemplating selling off my WR for a 530 EXC or 500 EXC (if I could ever find a used one). My hang-up is the maintenance intervals also. My main reason is a really miss the bursts of power you get from the bigger bikes that you don't get on the WR. I've really been sitting on the idea because I have a great all around bike in the WR (with exception to the power bursts you would get on a bigger bike).

Yeah, the WR is a great tight trail tool, but it doesn't have that punch you get from a 400+ machine...

I found this interesting, it was a very accurate comparison. Thanks for posting it. I found the WRR to be a good trail/ fire road bike. It has a good pace when out with KLRs or my wife's XT250. It even handles faster open trails well.
Up to around 3rd gear. After that it is so underpowered it is dangerous. I was out with a friend who has a KTM400 and some of the trail is fire road, trying to steer using throttle on sweepers it runs out of power and tries to put you in the woods. On fast tight trails you come to a mud hole or tree across the trail and you can't lift the front to clear it. You have to slow, down shift, then clutch it to get the front up.
And at the elevated pace the suspension shows it's road roots also.
I have dialed the suspension in for my weight, and have geared the bike for the woods 14/49.
I am sure the 2014 exc I am waiting for will suck going out with the KLR or the XT, but more tolerable than heading for the side of a corner or endoing in a mud pit because it is gutless. The comparison is good because the WR is more comfortable, much less maintenance, but also across the board lower performance. Unfortunately, I won't be able to keep both. I actually would keep both, They both are great bikes,
But very different, the KTM starts where the WR stops.

"Elevated Pace"

There's your problem right there... :)

If you're looking for speed, this is not your bike, that's for sure. I tackle some of the worst trails out there without any problem at all in the power department, but I stay around 15-25 mph at all times which, as you say, is this bike's sweet spot. Anything up high is purely for cruising down the road. This thing couldn't keep up with a minivan above 35. I've tried...

Sqidget wrote:

After that it is so underpowered it is dangerous. I was out with a friend who has a KTM400 and some of the trail is fire road, trying to steer using throttle on sweepers it runs out of power and tries to put you in the woods.

It may be just me, but I have never had a problem or felt any danger taking any kind of corner on the forest service roads here without using the throttle to steer.  Just kind of ride right around them - all the more so if I'm staying within the speed limit the forest service posts for those roads.

What WOULD be dangerous is coming around one of those corners, finding yourself staring the front grill of a loaded Kenworth logging truck right in the eye, and being unable to nip tight to the inside of the corner.  Like... if you were playing Kenny Roberts flattracker, for example.  Substitute a Ford Super Duty hauling a big-ass fifth wheel trailer for a logging truck if you prefer.  Or for that matter, meeting another guy on a motorcycle, except coming the other way, also playing Kenny Roberts.

Everybody chooses how they want to ride; you pays your money and you takes your chances.  However, I can't agree with the proposition that a bike - any bike - is dangerous on forestry roads if it doesn't have enough power to flat track through corners.  My take is quite the opposite - there are some ways of riding on public roads that put the rider (and sometimes others) at risk; it ain't how much or how little power the bike has.

Quote :

But very different, the KTM WRR starts where the WR KTM stops.

Fixed that for ya.

The point being, it depends on what the rider is looking for, and what kind of riding they do.  If your fun factor button is directly connected to your right wrist, then the WRR is probably not going to do it for you.  On the other hand, a three or four day ride in true 50/50 dual sport conditions, poking around checking out the mountains, alpine scenery, etc is probably not going to be as much fun on a KTM as a WRR kind of ride.

It's not a case of one being better than the other; it's about picking the bike that fits the style of riding you are going to do.

^^^ Agreed.

Every year... another local rider.

Dirt biker killed in logging truck collision

By Angela Treharne - The Free Press

A 22-year-old man is dead after the dirt bike he was riding collided with a logging truck.

The local man was dirt biking on Lodgepole Forest Service Road east of Elko on Sunday at around 4 p.m. with a friend when they encountered the Canfor truck coming the opposite direction.

The truck driver swerved right tried to avoid the bike, ending up in the ditch, but the bike collided with the truck. The man was pronounced dead at the scene.

“At the moment it just looks like a very tragic accident,” said Sgt. Will Thien.

“It happened very fast and there was no time for the truck driver to try to avoid hitting the bike.

“We are not suspecting alcohol was involved.”

The investigation is ongoing.

I rode a DR650 recently for the first time.   One thing I can say about that bike is that it had much more torque than the WR250R.  However, it vibrated so much compared to my WR, that I found it incredibly annoying, and distracting - and virtually un-rideable over any reasonable distance.  I tour on my WR and most everyone says that I am a "hero" for riding such a small displacement bike - such long distances.   Yet the irony for me is that I am now inclined to direct the kudos to all big-bore single riders who tour on them - if they all vibrate like that DR.  Granted - this may be a one-off kind of thing. And I'm willing to admit that possibility.  And vibration is relative.  The DR owner didn't think it vibrated that much.  Yet - keep in mind - that the owner collects bikes - and has many bikes of different displacements - including a KLR650 - and claims that the DR650 is....wait for it.....the "smoothest single of the bunch".   I let him test ride my WR250R - and he couldn't believe how refined and smooth it was. He immediately noticed the lack of vibration in contrast to his DR.  And he was impressed with the power too.  He stated that "it doesn't seem like a 250cc - it has an impressive amount of power for a 250".   He is now looking for used WR250Rs on the local market.   My limited experience with a large single - while not necessarily representative of all large singles - has left me even more content with my WR.

Mike

Many good points here. The 690 is more of a direct comparison as it is +/- 5lbs. It actually has some service intervals longer than the wr. Sure the 500 is lighter, but then again has no real subframe and no ability to ride 2 up, which is a deal breaker. I can realistic ly load 60 lbs of luggage on the wr, but at the same time there is a compromise in suspension quality. Horses for course I guess. I have never felt danger bc of lack of power. Now trying to do loaded mountain highways on a sputtering xt225.that was a deal breaker! The 500 sure is tall!

I've got an RFS engine as well in my 2007 450EXC and can confirm the previously mentioned maintenance intervals. I'm at 130 hours now and the top end is rock solid, compression is right on spec. Only maintenance I've done beyond the normal clean and lube routine is a couple 15 minute valve adjustments. I've got an aftermarket seat and I'd still take the WRR seat for anything more than 100 miles. I stand a lot while riding anyway, but on the KTM I find that I rarely sit. Its an awesome tool if you want an MX bike that's dual sported, but I would never claim it was the end-all bike for any trail out there.

I have owned several ktm,s & still own two now a 250exc-f & 150xc they are superb bikes & are tough & great to ride,they do require a bit more maintenance but thats because they are high revving & make good power,but dont think that they are poorly made & unreliable..i covered over 3000 miles on a 125exc with only two piston changes & this was mostly in competition
My yam requires less maintenance as it has a lower rev ceiling its also quieter,more comfortable,better on the road,& generally more relaxed than the 250f ktm..but its also heavier,has inferior suspension,& is less able offroad..so although they share a displacement they are very different...at the end of the day they serve different purposes & i love riding both of them.
Not really sure why they have pitched a wr250 in with a 500exc kind of pointless excercise two completly different bikes..bit like comparing a suzuki jeep to a range rover! 

marleymouse wrote:

...bit like comparing a suzuki jeep to a range rover! 

There's only one Jeep--and it will crush the range rover at everything besides picking up debutantes at vodka bars.  

But I take your point.  The closest match KTM has to the WR250R is the 690 EnduroR

KTM Enduro 690R: Relaxed (by KTM standards) service intervals, almost the same weight, 3x the power, excellent suspension, much more money.

I'll be honest; the 690 tempts me.  I weigh 220.  Once I get loaded down for adventure my bike struggles at freeway speeds.  The WR250R is a great little bike, but I find my eye wandering.  If Yamaha doesn't have any plans to build the Blue Unicorn (WR450R) by the time KTM's 390 Enduro R is released, my brand loyalty might reach the breaking point.

3x the money for 3x the maintenance. No thanks.
Yamaha all the way, every day.

GusinCA wrote:

3x the money for 3x the maintenance. No thanks.
Yamaha all the way, every day.

Gross exaggeration (WR250R vs 690R).  More like 1.5x the money, and as stated above the 690R maintenance schedule is really not that much different than the WR (both are mostly just normal checks/consumable changes at very reasonable intervals).  The 690R must be a beast over the WR performance wise.

I too await a WR450R and or KTM390R, those would be far more comparable imo   .

After doing 4000 miles in 5 days with an stock WR250R this past August, I can only say that this bike has no issues on both highway and trail roads. The short gas tank is a hassle. Other than that, I was doing 80 m/hr  for 12 hrs/day.

Simply amazing.

dfoustou wrote:

I was doing 80 m/hr  for 12 hrs/day.

Simply amazing.

I agree, which is why I own one. The list of what I can do on my WRR is impressive.  I can commute up and down I-10 in Houston (60 miles every day--saved me a TON on gas), I can chug through forest trails, I can even load it down with a week's worth of gear and go adventure.

In fact, there's very little I can't do on that little bike....still, I wish it had more oomph.

Not a gross exaggeration.

I know lots of people (well, 12) with KTM's, two of which are doing a round the world trip and are now stuck in Canada because they have run out of money due to unforeseen breakdowns of their KTM 690's. And many more who have broken down on trails with ride ending failures, and who had to pay 4 figure towing costs to get their bikes out. Not one of the 12 has not had serious expensive repairs needed. Not one. And all of them share similar stories about their friends with the orange plastics.

I have YET to hear from a Yamaha owner any one of those kinds of stories. Not ONE TIME. And I know a LOT of Yamaha owners, and I have 4 of them, and every single one has been 100% bulletproof, from the 24 foot Yamaha 242 Limited S boat (that I take on open ocean, failure also not being a viable option), to the Rhino, to the TTR90 that my daughter rides, to the XT225 I thrashed for years before it got stolen, to the Rhino I had before that was used and abused and beaten to death but NEVER quit.

No thanks. I ride in the middle of nowhere, by myself, 99% of the time.

They (KTM's) are better in every performance category that matters, except the one that matters most to me: Getting home. I'd never buy one (and I have the money) and I'd never recommend one to anyone. But what do I know? I've only been riding for 33 years...

Now, if Yamaha came out with a WR350R, or 450... :)

Well I stand by that your stated original parameters (acquisition and maintenance costs) were gross exaggerations at 3xWR (a 690 can be had for well less than $20K).  But changing context to repairs costs I will have to agree.  I had no idea the 690's had such a high failure rate, I must do some research to see if that is indeed the case.  And in the meantime enjoy the rock solid WR  .

Yes, I guess I meant costs total, including maintenance over the years.

KTM's are great bikes. And I'm sure most of them are very reliable most of the time. The couple stuck in Canada are from England, and the week after the got the bikes one of them kept popping some fuel canister thing off the fuel pump or something like that. Stranded them 3 times in Europe, like tow truck stranded in places far from home and in the rain. Then in Africa the alternator or rectifier failed and they were stranded for weeks in the middle of semi-hostile nowhere, with a KTM dealer 1,800 miles away and a Yamaha repair shop in a city 50 miles away. Then one of the bikes engines completely grenaded somewhere on the east coast of the US, some valve guide or activator issue that was a known issue but the previous KTM dealers didn't fix (at least that was paid for by KTM), and now one of the bikes has a clutch pack that disintegrated, and the other bike is surging at all RPMs. And that's just the two bikes I follow closely, since they are my friends.

I have 2 cars. I have a Mercedes CLS550, and a Ford Expedition. No comparison, the Benz is the smoothest, fastest, most comfortable and sporty car I've ever owned. But it's in the shop. A lot. Air suspension, TPMS, nav system, self closing trunk, the list goes on and on. With only 40,000 miles. The Expedition? Tows my boat, does all the grunt work, has 120,000 miles, and has only ever needed one new wheel bearing. Ever. That's it except for batteries and oil and such. It's like the Yamaha, simple, made in huge, massive quantities. Built like a brick. Nothing fancy. The air suspension can't fail because it has none. The dual zone climate control computer can't fail because it has none. That's my point, I will always choose simple, bulletproof and made by the millions over fancy, exotic and fast in the middle of nowhere...

I always enjoy the argument that KTM's break down constantly.  Do they break down more?  Absolutely.  They're race-built machines that push their components much harder than many other bikes - but the CRF and YZ have similar service intervals and reliability (worse actually).  Can you lessen break downs by doing proper service?  Yep.  Will this guaranty that you won't break down?  Of course not.  No bike can make that claim.  

When I got my KTM I specifically sought out a 2007 because I wanted the factory legal RFS engine and that's the only year it was made.  I'm happy to say that it's been problem free for 140 hours.  Will it make it another 140?  Probably not.  I expect I'll replace the top end around 200 - which is still pretty early compared to most guys I've talked to with the RFS.  But its a fun bike and I enjoy it, but I'm not afraid of maintenance.  To somebody that fears a rebuild, or doesn't enjoy the feeling of riding an MX bike on the street, I agree a KTM isn't a good choice.