| | fuel pump problem | |
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motokid Moderator
| Subject: Re: fuel pump problem Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:08 pm | |
| _________________ 2008 WR250X Gearing: 13t - 48t Power Commander 5 / PC-V Airbox Door Removed - Flapper glued - AIS removed FmF Q4 Bridgestone Battlax BT-003rs
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| | | MO-tarder
| Subject: Re: fuel pump problem Tue Jun 26, 2012 5:46 pm | |
| You bet, Hopefully i can get it apart without cutting it open. | |
| | | MO-tarder
| Subject: Re: fuel pump problem Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:24 am | |
| got motor apart without any damage did not find anything broken inside, and i only went as far as taking out the impeller. here is what i found. the other side looks like this I have the motor apart as shown, and connected to power to listen to it and it sounded strong, so i think i am going to stop here and resurface the impeller to provide it more clearance between the pump lower and upper parts. THe impeller appears to be plastic? and the pump body appears to be magnesium? not sure, I do know there is very little if any clearance for the impeller when parts are assembled so it makes sense when temp rise's and metal expands the impeller has no room to over come this heat expansion, so after i try to lap / resurface the impeller, fingers crossed, this should fix it Lapping the impeller surface, will be a delicate task due to its material. I will post more pictures of this next step. I will mic out the current thickness and then proceed to remove small amounts of material probably .002" to start. I will try to measure the impeller's pump housing depth (where the impeller sits inside the pump) to see if i can get a mesurement of just how much clearance there is for the impeller when pump is assembled so i can better determine how much to remove from the impeller. I have alot of pictures of removing the motor from the fuel pump assembly, and let me say this was not easy. The only part i damaged was the retainer for removing the fuel filter, i will have to get a new one, no big deal i am sure any well equiped hardware store should have a $.10 cent common retainer. I filed it off to avoid damage to the filter. | |
| | | MO-tarder
| Subject: Re: fuel pump problem Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:30 pm | |
| One thing i forgot to mention, is the outer edge of the impeller (the thickness surface) did not show any signs of touching the pump housing like both of the face's showed. There was no wear marks on the round thickness surface (outer edge) only on the face's. Where those face's sit inside the pump housing, the pump housing surface also showed signs of wear. There was circle swipes (marks) showing but did not wear off the coating on the housing surface. hard to get a good pic of this its a tight shot for camera phone. i didn't take any pics of the sides of the impeller but i can if needed. those surfaces look untouched unlike the face's of the impeller. Makes me wonder if the protective coating on the pump housing (magnesium part) wasn't taken into account when mfr determined the tolerance of the pump housing and impeller assembly ? OF course i am just guessing, but it happens in fabrication of any part that gets anodized, powder coated or painted after fabrication then when its time for assembly the extra thickness of the coating can cause problems in assembly and fitting parts together or (IMO) take up the needed tolerance for heat expansion of moving parts. ???? again just guessing. Would like to see inside a new improved motor that took the place of this "recalled" motor to test my conclusions. of course after i get this back together I will put it through the HEAT test and see if i can get my bike to repeat the non start, shut down cutting in and out (very slightly) at high fuel demand riding problem its been doing to me the past couple days, now that the summer is back and commuting temp. is above 100 degrees. . OR its all for not, and i have no idea what i am talking about. | |
| | | Chrispy1200
| Subject: Re: fuel pump problem Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:30 pm | |
| Maybe mic the thickness and outside diameter of the impeller at room temperature and then place it in warm water (same temp as a tank of hot gas ?) and measure again to see how how much the dimensions grow, if it all.
I suspect though you won't have any measurable growth of the impeller and since you can only see rub marks on the axial surfaces that the problem is not so much the impeller growing as it heats up but the the armature / motor is heating up and expanding, taking up all the axial clearance. I bet flat lapping the impeller on a piece of glass and some 320 grit to take reduce the total thickness by .001 or .002 will fix it up. | |
| | | MO-tarder
| Subject: Re: fuel pump problem Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:43 am | |
| - Chrispy1200 wrote:
- Maybe mic the thickness and outside diameter of the impeller at room temperature and then place it in warm water (same temp as a tank of hot gas ?) and measure again to see how how much the dimensions grow, if it all.
I like that idea, but not for the impeller its plastic (?). But for the Magnesium pump housing it should work to measure how much the part grows. - Chrispy1200 wrote:
- I suspect though you won't have any measurable growth of the impeller and since you can only see rub marks on the axial surfaces that the problem is not so much the impeller growing as it heats up but the the armature / motor is heating up and expanding, taking up all the axial clearance. I bet flat lapping the impeller on a piece of glass and some 320 grit to take reduce the total thickness by .001 or .002 will fix it up.
Yes, this is the same conclusion i have come too, but not the armature / motor causing this (of course it is a source of heat) as much as it is the " pump housing" swelling and stopping the impeller from pumping fuel. LEt me define what i mean by " pump housing" PUmp housing = two piece's made of metal (cast magnesium ?) the impeller sits inside these two pieces and is sandwich inside and surrounded on all sides , the two pump housing pieces come together and touch on the outer edges so the dimension / space left inside is fixed and the impeller spins inside. MY theory of why this pump is failing is when the heat builds and the metal parts " pump housing" expands due to thermal expansion the space that i mentioned above that is "fixed" shrinks and grabs the impeller and stops it from turning IMO. This would explain the wear marks i seen on the face (axial surface) of the impeller. So, last night I measured all three pieces to get an idea what kind of tolerance is left for the impeller when all pieces are assembled. Those measurements should be able to confirm that the marks i seen on the impeller is in fact pump housing expanding and grabing the impeller. ????? AND was i surprised as to what i found. YES, my theory appears to have some logic to it. | |
| | | MO-tarder
| Subject: Re: fuel pump problem Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:12 am | |
| here is pic of my measurements, keep in mind there is room for error in these measurements, its hard to measure some pieces due to there position inside the motor and my measuring tool might not be suited for such task. HOWEVER, my final measurements are my best guess (guess might be a bad word to use) the best i could measure down to .001" of and inch. I measured each piece several several times different location over and over and over until i felt what i was seeing and dimensions i keep getting repeated its self over and over or often enough to conclude my final numbers to use where the closest i could get to "actual" size of parts. inner pump housing "inside diameter" (where impeller sits inside) = .994" impeller "outside diameter" = 1.004" clearance = .010" so when impeller is inside there appears to be .005" tolerance on each side of the impeller as it relates to the inside diameter of the inner pump housing VS outside diameter of impeller. sounds good and makes sense (?) So, now for the area in question impeller "thickness" = .149" easy to measure feel good with accuracy yea it looks like it says ..150" but it must of moved it really measured .149" now for the "inner pump housing depth dimension" inner pump housing "depth" of pocket for impeller = .148" was a number i keep getting also keep getting .149" and .150" a couple times, but its really hard to get a good accurate measurement but i feel good with using .149" cause i keep getting it so much BUT FOR ARGUMENT and error of measurement lets ASSUME its .150" and call it good. So, what i have concluded is the impeller thichness is .149" and the inner pump housing depth = .150" which leaves .0005" of clearance on each face of the impeller when assembled into inner pump housing. WTF! The tolerance for the diameter is of the impeller is .005"(each side of diameter when assembled) and the tolerance for the face surface is .0005" YOU DONT HAVE TO BE A ROCKET SCIENTIST MINDED PERSON TO SEE THERE IS A PROBLEM HERE! HEADS NEED TO ROLL This also explains why i didn't see any wear marks on the outer diameter (thickness surface) but saw marks on the face surface of the impeller .010" clearance vs. .001" clearance Actually I am surprised this pump worked at all (barely worked and bike probably under powered starving for fuel IMO), and very surprised it has 18,000 miles on it. I do feel this is why i experienced a under power feeling at higher fuel demand (highway riding) while riding and i really think this is why the pump quits when temp is very high AS yamaha stated in their recall for japan (read it somewhere on the internet so take it as you may). Next post will be my "fix" for the tight tolerance of the impeller to pump housing relationship. of course IMO "fix". | |
| | | MO-tarder
| Subject: Re: fuel pump problem Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:48 pm | |
| - Chrispy1200 wrote:
- I suspect though you won't have any measurable growth of the impeller and since you can only see rub marks on the axial surfaces that the problem is not so much the impeller growing as it heats up but the the armature / motor is heating up and expanding, taking up all the axial clearance. I bet flat lapping the impeller on a piece of glass and some 320 grit to take reduce the total thickness by .001 or .002 will fix it up.
I agree 100% BUT, should I match the clearance of the diameter of the impeller? which is .005" each face .010" total OR should i go further or less? How much should i remove and how much might be to much before it affects function? Any ideas i can kick around would be helpful. I am over thinking this too much need some insight. Here's where i am at so far. should i keep going? it started at .149" and its at .145" giving .002" clearance on each face when assembled. OR should i go .003" each face or .005" each face to match diameter clearance which is also .005"? Would that be to much ? of course i could go less and if needed redue it, but i really don't want to do this again it wasn't easy to get motor apart or out of fuel pump assembly with no damage!. Please give me your two cents, anybody feel free to chime in, I could use some help with this decision. I will assemble it tonight so hopefully someone will respond before then. CAN"T dive to work another day MUST RIDE! | |
| | | Chrispy1200
| Subject: Re: fuel pump problem Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:30 pm | |
| I think axial clearance on this type of pump impeller is more critical than radial clearance. I wouldn't try to match the radial clearance. Too much axial clearance will reduce the pumps efficiency. I'd stop where you are right now, I think you've taken off plenty. | |
| | | MO-tarder
| Subject: Re: fuel pump problem Thu Jun 28, 2012 7:09 pm | |
| Agree! Thanks chrispy1200. its almost together. Tomorrow is going to be around 100 degrees, i will be able to run it and see if i can get the pump to quit like it did earlier in the week. | |
| | | MO-tarder
| Subject: Re: fuel pump problem Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:02 pm | |
| didn't work! took the bike for a ride after i let it warm up and it sucked, runs ruff off throttle and won't pull enough to get to speed, the fuel pump just runs on while the bike is running and i don't think it did that before?
Must of taken too much off or shouldn't of taken any at all and the problem is in the armature and brush area? like you said yesterday.
Oh well, it will just sting a little less when i dig in my pocket to buy a good pump. worth the effort, but a fail none the less.
:TTSB: | |
| | | Chrispy1200
| Subject: Re: fuel pump problem Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:07 pm | |
| Since the pump runs on and doesn't build any pressure, I think you may have taken too much off. Bummer... | |
| | | nonlinear
| Subject: anyone lose 2 fuel pumps? Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:58 pm | |
| great write-up and pictures MO, I just ran across it tonight, sorry it didnt work, I think I would have sanded down the impeller the same amount. since it seems like there is a significant loss in volume, is there a possibility the impeller is on the axle in the wrong direction, where the "C" shaped fins are pointing in the wrong direction? seems like it could go on the axle either way.
I am having a repeat of my summer 2010 fuel pump failure, I had it fail at that time on my 2/08 at 1800 miles. it was replaced under warranty and all seemed fine until yesterday. the complete failure was proceeded by hot-weather-only failures. yesterday it wouldnt start after a lunchbreak sitting in the sun. cooling down the tank, radiator, and engine with cool water cured it quickly. initially the pump wouldnt prime but the starter would turn. after the cool water, the pumpp primed and it started right up. (it did a similar stunt last september on a hot day also) . I expect the hot weather failures will increase in frequency until it completely fails. it now has 8400 miles ( about 6600 miles on the new pump). anyone found a more reliable aftermarket pump? thanks nl
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| | | Delta_T
| Subject: Re: fuel pump problem Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:53 am | |
| Thanks for the fascinating write up. My '08 pump hasn't failed me yet although it could be that the pump has been replaced before I bought the bike. This is what I don't really understand: Isn't it possible to replace broken -in tank- pump with an external one. There are a lot of cheap but good pumps out there and as long as it is within spec, there shouldn't be a problem? And by deleting the original pump and blocking off the hole and creating a feed from there you even create more volume in the tank. I am sure I am wrong because someone would have done it but I am still wondering. Most cars, and a lot of outboards, ATV's etc.. are Fi nowadays, so there must be a pump out there that would work? | |
| | | MO-tarder
| Subject: Re: fuel pump problem Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:13 am | |
| - Chrispy1200 wrote:
- Bummer...
Times 10! thanks for following this and commenting. Now that its a fail and i look back i wish i would of only taken enough off, like .001", to remove the wear marks i seen, and called it good. but i got carried away, i am not an engineer and if i was like minded i might of been able to make a better decision. amateur attempt at best. - nonlinear wrote:
- is there a possibility the impeller is on the axle in the wrong direction, where the "C" shaped fins are pointing in the wrong direction? seems like it could go on the axle either way
yes, it can go on either way. But i checked and double checked it was in the correct way. the outer surface has 4 holes in it and the underside has 5 holes and the 5th doesn't go all the way threw. The impeller cover ? which i was calling the outer pump housing must also go in one way so the fuel ports match the inner pump housing. I had this outer piece marked and the motor case marked so i could put it back exactly the way it came off. - nonlinear wrote:
- I am having a repeat of my summer 2010 fuel pump failure, I had it fail at that time on my 2/08 at 1800 miles. it was replaced under warranty and all seemed fine until yesterday
Thats exactlly why i tore this thing apart. There is no guarantee that a new pump wont do the same thing. As for a better pump, not for a direct replacement (motor only not complete assembly) the same mfr that made the bad ones is also still making the only (?) one that fits into the fuel assembly. At least i haven't found any other than the one coming from china. IF you have the ability you could gut the old assembly install a different pump from different mfr. and some type of pressure regulator and plumb it to the fuel tank hose, which i have thought about, and i have seen similar attemps when researching a replacement for this pump. I did give a link couple days ago of a company in california that ordered just the motor from china and it is a plug and play, remove old install new motor reassemble fuel assembly type of fix for $130 + shipping. good luck with your fix, IMO if you keep your tank full of gas on a hot day it might help it to not act up, but that's a lame way to roll. - Delta_T wrote:
- This is what I don't really understand: Isn't it possible to replace broken -in tank- pump with an external one.
YES, and if i can find the link i will post, but some guys that have the fuel injected Husqvarna 4 strokes 250, 310, 450, 510, 610 from 2008-2010 have this same pump and some of them did exactly what you stated. IMO it's better route than putting back in a "new" same POS motor that can from the same mfr as the "old" one. they swaped out this motor and installed one out of a ducatti (?) and had sucess. The company http://www.ca-cycleworks.com/fp-hus seen what was happening and ordered up some pumps from china slapped there company logo on it and marked it up to the sky. here is a link to buy direct from china http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/358173173/Fuel_Pump_for_YAMAHA_motorcycle_1100.html check out the price of the pump motor that is in our bikes $15 bucks. but you have to order 10 min. . which is just a touch more than the $130 ca-cycleworks is selling it for. good move on their part, but no thanks. hey did you get your new graphics yet? | |
| | | Delta_T
| Subject: Re: fuel pump problem Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:47 am | |
| - MO-tarder wrote:
- .. hey did you get your new graphics yet?
No, not yet, I think they shipped them on Monday but I have no way of tracking it. I might take another week before it gets here. Can't wait. | |
| | | Guest Guest
| Subject: Re: fuel pump problem Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:03 pm | |
| - mattnadz wrote:
- build date 2/08
vin 000061
My pump shit the bed twice on me this week. Once with the girlfriend on the back lol, we had to walk it home for a good 20mins. Ordering one from Service Honda today. I`m from Ontario so i`m sure i wont be seeing it for 2-3 weeks
Has anyone from Canada had this problem. I`m gonna give Yamaha Canada a call tomorrow. Same here. I'm from Canada. I have a WR250X 2010 (bought in 2011). My dealer wasn't aware of this problem. I have now a little more than 12 000 km. If the new fuel pump is exactly the same as the original one. I'll change bike. Since 2008, i'm no lucky. In 2008 i bought a KLR 650 brand new. And i discover a few months later that the damned bike had oil consumption problem. When i bought the WR, i knew that some of the 2008 had fuem pump issues. Now, i see that the problem not only concern the year model 2008. |
| | | motokid Moderator
| Subject: Re: fuel pump problem Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:32 am | |
| - Matric wrote:
Same here. I'm from Canada. I have a WR250X 2010 (bought in 2011). You have a 2010 build date with a bad fuel pump? - Matric wrote:
My dealer wasn't aware of this problem. I think that kind of answer form a dealer is something they are forced to say by the manufacturer. PHUCKERS!!! Tell your dealer you'd be glad to show them lengthy threads from this forum, Thumpertalk, Supermotojunkie, and advrider (I think) regarding this exact issue from hundreds of riders, not to mention that a recall was available in Japan. Although your biggest issue might be that your bike is a 2010 and that's extremely rare. Some people have gotten a replacement through Yamaha warranty. _________________ 2008 WR250X Gearing: 13t - 48t Power Commander 5 / PC-V Airbox Door Removed - Flapper glued - AIS removed FmF Q4 Bridgestone Battlax BT-003rs
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| | | Coop
| Subject: Re: fuel pump problem Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:48 am | |
| Well so guys know we are not alone on my local dual sport forum there are 4 guys with Husaberg's that are fuel injected. EVERY one of them has had there fuel pump replaced. Under warranty but still it's pain when you have to tow the bike home, wait while it gets order/replaced etc. So it's not just our WR's.
When I bought my bike I knew the pump was an issue and it's a risk I am willing to take for a decent bike. I don't think you will find one bike that doesn't have a problem related to that model. It just sucks that's it's a $200 repair and you have to wait a few weeks for the part. I am tempted to buy one just as a backup like skierd did. I don't think he ever had to use his yet but it's nice knowing it's there if you need it. | |
| | | Guest Guest
| Subject: Re: fuel pump problem Sat Aug 04, 2012 8:25 am | |
| - motokid wrote:
- Matric wrote:
Same here. I'm from Canada. I have a WR250X 2010 (bought in 2011). You have a 2010 build date with a bad fuel pump? . I guess that the bike was built in late 2009. I can't check that because my bike is at the dealer for the installating of a new rear Distanzia tire. The bike sits there, waiting for the new fuel pump. I wrote to Yamaha Canada because i wanted to know if the new fuel pump will be the same as the one on my bike. Here's the answer i got: Good morning! The replacement pump will be nearly identical with a slightly different impeller tolerance and you will not have a repeat issue. Very few of the pumps were affected in Canada but we often tweak designs and materials when we can to make improvements. Regards, Scott YAMAHA MOTOR CANADA LTD. 480 Gordon Baker Road, Toronto, Ontario, M2H3B4 |
| | | galland1
| Subject: Re: fuel pump problem Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:00 am | |
| Mine is finally getting bad enough to fix. Bike is a wr250x 2008 mfr. date of 04/08. Purchased new April 2010. Falls in the Japan recall range. It has the classic fail when hot. Has been a little flaky when hot since day one. Now at 4300mi. Restarts fine when cool. Going to sic my wife on Yamaha to try to get it fixed under warranty. She is a pro at making people see things her way and has left many a salesman crying in their cheerios. | |
| | | Decapsuleux
| Subject: Re: fuel pump problem Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:38 pm | |
| Hi guys im new on the forum... I have a Canadian 2009 wr250x (bougth new in 2010) Date of 09/08 bike have 12000 km and never had any issue at all, but today.... seem I got my first problem whit the bike...the fuel pump I notice a major change in the rush sound comming from the pump couple of week ago... This afternoon I came to start my bike and I did not hear the usual rush sound from the fuel pump at all... il give it another try later when its cool down outside.But I think I need to order a new fuel pump... I checked all the connector hidden behind the rad too, just in case, and they seem ok great forum btw | |
| | | Guest Guest
| Subject: Re: fuel pump problem Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:49 pm | |
| - motokid wrote:
- Matric wrote:
Same here. I'm from Canada. I have a WR250X 2010 (bought in 2011). You have a 2010 build date with a bad fuel pump? . The build date is 08-2009. It took exactly 2 weeks to receive and install the fuel pump. My bike was ready tonight. I didn't do a top speed test. Just for the fun of it. You know kinda scientific test It rained and i have a brand new rear Distanzia. |
| | | Jonnythong
| Subject: Re: fuel pump problem Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:21 pm | |
| Special Thanks to MO-Tarder on Page 13! His tear down gave me confidence to try the same and it ended in success. My toy funds are short right now so I tore the pump apart for a temporary fix. First thing I would like to reiterate is that the outer plastic halves (holding the motor) are not easy to take apart, the tabs that hold it together are set in a way that makes it seem permanent. I took the easy route and cut angles in the square backs of the lock tabs (term?), so with a bit of pulling force the upper half would slide off without needing to bend the plastic upwards, risking breakage. Tabs Represented in Red. There are 3 total. The fuel hose connecting the lower and upper nipples was fairly brittle, if your planning on this tear down expect to go buy a replacement. Represented in Blue. Stole the picture from http://rickramsey.net/WR250Rmods.htm I'm sure most of you have stumbled on his build, if not, it's definitely worth taking a peek. Now, after prying open the housing, I found the easiest way to take the innards out was to tap the bottom (filter end) of the motor on a table, popping out the outer pump housing. I would suggest doing the same for removing the impeller as I found the plastic fins to be very fragile... As for wear shown on the impeller, I believe my pump failure must have been caused by contamination. The faces showed no signs of wear. The outside had a gash running across about half the circumference. This mark was even very hard to feel with a fingernail but was still enough to cause some rubbing when I spun the motor by hand. As for sanding the impeller, I ended up using 320 grit though I recommend a finer, maybe 600 grit paper. I sanded the face a bit even though I doubt it was causing any problems in my case. I was careful with the outside, sanding just enough to show new plastic. To be more specific, wrapping the paper around my thumb caused the edges to wear first, though I continued this until most of the outer edges showed new plastic but still had a small strip the middle mostly untouched. Hopefully that made sense. I can't guarantee, but this might be the trick to ensure the impeller still creates a seal on the outside as the middle would still have the original tolerance but in overall will reduce friction while spinning. As for testing, I took the bike on a 20 minute ride and made sure to get it nice and hot and the pump still primed like a champ upon multiple restarts. Ill be sure to update tomorrow or monday when I get a chance to take it out for a few hours! Total time took me ~4 hours, though I always fiddle around with unimportant stuff and get sidetracked | |
| | | Chrispy1200
| Subject: Re: fuel pump problem Sun Sep 02, 2012 10:01 am | |
| Nice job ! I'd be interested to know how your fuel pressure has been affected, if at all. | |
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