2008 won’t idle, tried a bunch, weird issues

Flynavy wrote:

I was able to identify the wire I think, neutral switch? Not fully understanding what it does.

Last thing I found was this bundle of wires.  I can’t tell if this is a factory thing or after the fact, any ideas?

Neutral switch is the one that carries the neutral information to the ECU, and turns on the neutral light on the display.

Those wires are definitely aftermarket; you never leave wires exposed like this, nor do you connect them with a shrink wrap.

Flynavy wrote:

I can’t for the life of me figure out what the 3 black wires are that are clamped together.  They go into what I believe is the stator AC output..

How can that be? The picture you took of the stator coil connector looks correct with three white wires, one black, and one red; the only other cable that should be coming out of the stator cover is the crankshaft position sensor, which comprises one red and one white wire.

Can you follow the one black wire that is connected to the three wires?

Quote :

johnkol

Flynavy wrote:

I can’t for the life of me figure out what the 3 black wires are that are clamped together.  They go into what I believe is the stator AC output..

How can that be? The picture you took of the stator coil connector looks correct with three white wires, one black, and one red; the only other cable that should be coming out of the stator cover is the crankshaft position sensor, which comprises one red and one white wire.

Can you follow the one black wire that is connected to the three wires?

Stock imagine but the white plug is where the three black wires and red are feeding into.  What is it?

Flynavy wrote:

Is this the connector for the crankshaft positioning sensor? The wires for that are supposed to be red and white, but the manual is sometimes wrong.

Is the thin black wire going into the same slot as the thick black wire? If yes, then one of the previews owners put it there, factory would never implement something like this.

Flynavy wrote:

Stock imagine but the white plug is where the three black wires and red are feeding into. What is it?

This may be the wire loom for the Air Induction System; is the AIS still on the bike?

johnkol wrote:

Flynavy wrote:

Stock imagine but the white plug is where the three black wires and red are feeding into. What is it?

This may be the wire loom for the Air Induction System; is the AIS still on the bike?

No, appears flapper mod is done.  Why would they splice into CPS? Man this has been a head hurter.

johnkol wrote:

Flynavy wrote:

Stock imagine but the white plug is where the three black wires and red are feeding into. What is it?

This may be the wire loom for the Air Induction System; is the AIS still on the bike?

Did some more research… yes AIS is still there… that module with the blue plug going into it.

Here’s better photo of the wiring in question. Looks factory to me? It’s part of the stator bundle…

Flynavy wrote:

No, appears flapper mod is done.  Why would they splice into CPS? Man this has been a head hurter.

Is it splicing into the CPS or into that wire loom? Irrespective though, that wire with the three-wire connection does not belong there.

I bought my bike with AIS and flapper removed, so I'm not sure whether that wire loom belongs to these two.

johnkol wrote:

Flynavy wrote:

No, appears flapper mod is done.  Why would they splice into CPS? Man this has been a head hurter.

Is it splicing into the CPS or into that wire loom? Irrespective though, that wire with the three-wire connection does not belong there.

I bought my bike with AIS and flapper removed, so I'm not sure whether that wire loom belongs to these two.

I have no idea then… it just goes up into the bundle where all the stator connections came from.  I cannot even begin to wonder what it’s for.  All I know is it goes to white connection for stator which is red/black.  I have the diagram but it’s not much help.  All three wires are black/brown though which does follow factory wiring.  And the way they are crimped is in a way you would see with factory, and there’s no evidence of tampering with how they go into that white plug.

Is the white connector the CPS one? Can you unplug it and measure the resistance of the two wires coming out of the crankcase? If it is the CPS then its resistance should be 248-372 Ohms according to the manual.

Factory (any factory, not just Yamaha) would never splice two wires into one pin. They would also never connect wires with a shrink wrap or by soldering; the reason for this is that manufacturing needs to be mechanised and not depend on worker skill, because otherwise quality consistency goes out the window.

johnkol wrote:

Is the white connector the CPS one? Can you unplug it and measure the resistance of the two wires coming out of the crankcase? If it is the CPS then its resistance should be 248-372 Ohms according to the manual.

Factory (any factory, not just Yamaha) would never splice two wires into one pin. They would also never connect wires with a shrink wrap or by soldering; the reason for this is that manufacturing needs to be mechanised and not depend on worker skill, because otherwise quality consistency goes out the window.

I don’t think it’s the crank sensor.  There’s 3 bundles from the stator… rectifier, neutral switch, and the other is stator AC I believe, whatever that means.  The three black wires aren’t soldered or shrink wrapped, just a metal crimp which I’ve seen in different applications but I see what you’re saying.  I just need to find what the heck these are and I can probably solve this part of the equation.

johnkol wrote:

Is the white connector the CPS one? Can you unplug it and measure the resistance of the two wires coming out of the crankcase? If it is the CPS then its resistance should be 248-372 Ohms according to the manual.

Factory (any factory, not just Yamaha) would never splice two wires into one pin. They would also never connect wires with a shrink wrap or by soldering; the reason for this is that manufacturing needs to be mechanised and not depend on worker skill, because otherwise quality consistency goes out the window.

I had someone pull back their wiring and they confirmed those three black wires crimped into one is in fact factory.  No idea what it’s for, but it’s there on theirs.

Took a closer look at the schematics and the bike, and I think the wires are incorrectly identified on Page 5-50, but correctly identified on Page 5-2: the cylindrical connector (with red and white wires) is the CPS, the rectangular connector (with red and black wires) is the Generator Coupler, and the third wire bundle is the stator output that goes to the R/R; the neutral switch wire is not part of this bundle that comes out of the top of the crankcase.

For the good news, on the back side of the Generator Coupler, there are two black wires spliced into the black connector, which is exactly how yours are too; I can't follow that thinner wire further up because it's wrapped with electrical tape with other wires; I wouldn't have expected them to splice two wires into one connector, so I can no longer be certain that they didn't also splice that thinner wire into three. However, the wires from this Generator Coupler do not show up anywhere in the circuit diagrams so I do not know what their function is.

I think the best course of action is to leave these wires as they are, and just see how the engine works after you get the new stator.

johnkol wrote:

Took a closer look at the schematics and the bike, and I think the wires are incorrectly identified on Page 5-50, but correctly identified on Page 5-2: the cylindrical connector (with red and white wires) is the CPS, the rectangular connector (with red and black wires) is the Generator Coupler, and the third wire bundle is the stator output that goes to the R/R; the neutral switch wire is not part of this bundle that comes out of the top of the crankcase.

For the good news, on the back side of the Generator Coupler, there are two black wires spliced into the black connector, which is exactly how yours are too; I can't follow that thinner wire further up because it's wrapped with electrical tape with other wires; I wouldn't have expected them to splice two wires into one connector, so I can no longer be certain that they didn't also splice that thinner wire into three. However, the wires from this Generator Coupler do not show up anywhere in the circuit diagrams so I do not know what their function is.

I think the best course of action is to leave these wires as they are, and just see how the engine works after you get the new stator.

I agree, as for the neutral switch or horn being hacked together… I can’t even speculate.  Clearly someone tried the flapper mod, and tried to delete exhaust servo.  Maybe they did it wrong and had to fix it.

Another thing I just noticed, is my ignition coil has zero rubber at the tip.  New one on the way already, but could you see this having an effect?

When you connect boot to plug, it’s just metal on the coil hole onto the metal exposed threads of the plug right? Hard to explain but it almost crunched in since it’s threaded exposed end into a metal hole.  That’s normal?

Flynavy wrote:

Another thing I just noticed, is my ignition coil has zero rubber at the tip.  New one on the way already, but could you see this having an effect?

When you connect boot to plug, it’s just metal on the coil hole onto the metal exposed threads of the plug right?

That's correct, the plug threads mate with similar threads in the coil. Other bikes (or cars) require the threaded plug on the spark plug, and the coil has a spring-loaded cap that presses on the plug.

The rubber boot makes no real difference in the short term; it's there to seal against the plug, and provide damping so that the coil does not vibrate against the plug. In the long term the vibrations will wear out the coil and plug threads, so good call in ordering a new one.

johnkol wrote:

Flynavy wrote:

Another thing I just noticed, is my ignition coil has zero rubber at the tip.  New one on the way already, but could you see this having an effect?

When you connect boot to plug, it’s just metal on the coil hole onto the metal exposed threads of the plug right?

That's correct, the plug threads mate with similar threads in the coil. Other bikes (or cars) require the threaded plug on the spark plug, and the coil has a spring-loaded cap that presses on the plug.

The rubber boot makes no real difference in the short term; it's there to seal against the plug, and provide damping so that the coil does not vibrate against the plug. In the long term the vibrations will wear out the coil and plug threads, so good call in ordering a new one.

Update… new stator in. Bike struggled to start, died after a few seconds.

I went into TPS mode and NOW it’s showing 70-80, at idle, without me touching throttle at all. I said screw it
And loosened it up and rotated the sensor both directions to full stop. Even then, idle was 60-80. Not like when I originally adjusted it from 13 to 21. I am so so so frustrated and lost and I have no idea what my next step is.

Can you check the TPS voltage per Page 8-79?

I know it's extremely frustrating, but hang in there, you'll figure it out. A few years ago my bike would start sputtering an hour into a ride in the middle of the RPM range; it took me three months to figure out what was going on, and during that time I got so frustrated that I was considering selling the bike.

johnkol wrote:

Can you check the TPS voltage per Page 8-79?

I know it's extremely frustrating, but hang in there, you'll figure it out. A few years ago my bike would start sputtering an hour into a ride in the middle of the RPM range; it took me three months to figure out what was going on, and during that time I got so frustrated that I was considering selling the bike.

Yes I tried that, it hung out on the low end if not under minimum voltage.

Can you dumb down what’s happening with the TPS? I understand I place it onto throttle body, which has that little silver piece, the one that rotates with the throttle lever. What is actually inputting data to show the idle number of say 18?

Also the TPS has a slight rattle I noticed when holding it.

But can a bad TPS lead to the symptoms I’m seeing ?

Flynavy wrote:

Yes I tried that, it hung out on the low end if not under minimum voltage.

So you are seeing minimum voltage with the throttle fully closed, yet that is translating to a value of ~70 at TPS diagnostic setting? What kind of readings do you get as you turn the throttle towards max?

The TPS is essentially a potentiometer like the one in your audio receiver: as you turn it the resistance changes, and that becomes the input to the ECU.

How slight is a "slight" rattle? Could the shaft be a little worn and produce that rattle? Maybe, but in that case I wouldn't expect it to have such a huge effect on the readings.

If the ECU sees a TPS value of 70, which probably corresponds to about 7500 RPMs, then it will send out enough fuel for those RPMs, which would be way too much for a 1500 RPM idle; that would explain the extremely rich conditions that you smell, but would it kill the engine? Not sure.

But before you changed the stator, the TPS was 20-97, and the engine was still dying at idle, and you could smell a rich condition, right?

johnkol wrote:

Flynavy wrote:

Yes I tried that, it hung out on the low end if not under minimum voltage.

So you are seeing minimum voltage with the throttle fully closed, yet that is translating to a value of ~70 at TPS diagnostic setting? What kind of readings do you get as you turn the throttle towards max?

The TPS is essentially a potentiometer like the one in your audio receiver: as you turn it the resistance changes, and that becomes the input to the ECU.

How slight is a "slight" rattle? Could the shaft be a little worn and produce that rattle? Maybe, but in that case I wouldn't expect it to have such a huge effect on the readings.

If the ECU sees a TPS value of 70, which probably corresponds to about 7500 RPMs, then it will send out enough fuel for those RPMs, which would be way too much for a 1500 RPM idle; that would explain the extremely rich conditions that you smell, but would it kill the engine? Not sure.

But before you changed the stator, the TPS was 20-97, and the engine was still dying at idle, and you could smell a rich condition, right?

Yes… when I got the bike TPS was 13/97 and I adjusted to 21/98.

Pulled valve cover, shimmed valves, and I did TPS check again and it was still holding steady at 21.

Bunch more fiddling around without really changing much. I could consistently get it started but yes very rich smelling and fuel smells.

Then checked TPS again and it showed 30-33, it was digitally bouncing in this range and I hadn’t touched it at all.

Fast forward to today, replaced stator, plugged everything back in… was curious on TPS before testing everything and it was at like 68.

Flynavy wrote:

Then checked TPS again and it showed 30-33, it was digitally bouncing in this range and I hadn’t touched it at all.

So it had drifted slightly before you changed the stator.

Can you measure the entire Voltage and TPS range? If the minimum voltage value shows up as 70, what happens at higher voltage values?