Hey Derek - Attitude Industries EFI vs PC 5

So as usual, conversations around the "best EFI" unit are like "best oil" threads.

Over at SMJ (Supermotojunkie) a member responded to my suggestion that someone check out your site and the AI (Attitude Industries) units.

I have never bashed or trashed the other products. I simply try to make sure people know there are other options other than the PC (Power Comannder) and FmF units.

I do tend to include that the AI units are less expensive than PC 5's.

So the guy with the PC 5 responded with this:

Quote :

There is a reason they are cheaper. They do not read the throttle
position hence they are only 1D, they only connect to the injector.
They can only take the incomming fuel signal--ie pulses, % on time,
milliseconds, whatever units you want to call it, & add a correction
factor. You get 5-6 correction factors for the entire fuel map, ie
low, med, high rpm etc. These are the numbers you always see them
exchange back & forth like 6-5-6-7-4-3. Those 5-6 numbers are all
they can change.

Other programmers, say the Dynojets, are 2D. They read throttle
position as well (the Dynojets plug right in line with the throttle
position sensor as well as the injector). The Dynojets also add (or
subtract--the others can't & there are spots on any map that need
leaning) to the incoming fuel signal like above but they also look at
the throttle position & thus can get a different value based on what
is happening. This makes them 2D, here is what I mean & how they
differ.

For example, you are cruising at 3,000 rpm. On the simple controllers
they say for 3,000 rpm thats mid-low so I add "X" to injector on
time. The Dynojet is similar at this condition; it says 3,000 rpm @ 10%
throttle so add "X" to the injector time. Here is where they
differ. Now you are cruising at 3,000 rom & crack the throttle
open. The throttle opens but the engine is still basically at 3,000
rpm. This is all the simple programmers know so they still add "X".
The Dynojets read 3,000 rpm @100% throttle so add "Y". This
difference may seem subtle but it is the heart of tuning & the
reason of tuning in the first place.

In addition to this, the other programmers give you 6 points to adjust,
the PC V gives you 460 points (every 250 rpm from 500-12,000 rpm (guess
at rev limit) x 0,2,5,10,15,20,40,60,80,100% throttle). Whoa, I don't
want to program all those you say...well good because you don't. Power
Commander maps are made by Dynojet dynos to a target air fuel ratio set
by the dyno operator/map creator. The dyno & Power Commander
communicate to create the map. I don't have a Dyno you say...you don't
need one. While a custom dyno tune by a qualified operator is best
standard maps created by Dynojet for typical setups & maps from
other WR owners (me) can get the job done. They may not be perfect for
your exact setup but are certainly closer to the mark than amatuers
swapping numbers across the continent based on nothing but seat-of-the
pants "I changed something so it has to be better" dynos.

I won't even bother to get into the advanced features like on the fly
map switching, autotune, displays, gear specific maps (you can have a
different map for each gear), etc.

Since we have Derek here I thought it'd be great to see what the response to these kinds of comments are.

The Gen 5 you can add and subtract.

Yeah. I know. You know. Others don't.

I was more interested in Derek's response to the throttle position comments.

And other stuff too.


Here's the thread at SMJ: click me

You'll see from the time I posted about the Gen 3.5 before I started this thread.

So you can subtract--so what? Are you going to program one of your six numbers now to be negative?

Quote :

Also just want to point out that when I refer to the 1D-2D thing that refers to the CORRECTION by the programmer, not the overall mapping of the bike from the manufacturer.

The manufactuter (in this case Yamaha) will always have at least a 2D if not 3D mapping stock. It varies manufacturer to manufacturer & even bike to bike. Every bike will have at least a rpm vs throttle position map. For every rpm, there is every possible throttle position. Some bikes have a 3D map that in addition to rpm & throttle position will have a MAP (manifold absolute pressure) componet. For every given rpm there is not only every possible throttle position but also every possible manifold pressure (within a certain range it will have min & max limits).

The base injector time is what the ECU reads right off the map--for the current rpm, throttle position, & manifold pressure (where applicable). From there the ECU adds its own correction factors--such as for air temperature, engine temperature, etc. & where the base map is only 2D not 3D, those ECUs will factor in the manifold pressure as a corrrection factor instead of a full blown map componet. The base injector time + all the ECU correction factors = the total injector time. All programmers only come into play after the total injector time. It takes the "total" injector time as determined by the ECU & modifies it further to create a programmed injector time for lack of a better word. Programmed injector time = adjustment by the programmer + total ECU injector time. All changes by the ECU are still factored in even after a programmer is added because the ECU will change what the programmer sees as the total injector time.

The reason I bring this up is this. The stock ECU map is at least 2D, if not full 3D. So what if the stock ECU map is rich at the 10% throttle opening but lean at the 100% throttle opening at the same RPM? Well, if you only get one programmer correction factor for that RPM it means that you are compromising in some region of the map. Say you add fuel by programming in a large + number. Well now you helped the bike at 100% throttle at that RPM but you hurt the bike at 10% throttle at that RPM--it was already rich there & now you went ahead & made it even richer----a compromise. However, if you can control the programmer correction across the entire throttle position for a given RPM that is one less compromise to be made. You have the control to lean it at 10% & richen it at 100%.

Note the most any programmer can do is control 2 factors (skip the ability to control the spark for the sake of this discussion). So because the stock ECU factors in alot of other things I mentioned--manifold pressure, air & engine temps, etc. you will always have to compromise somewhere (ie what if when it gets real hot the map goes rich or lean due to the manufacture's programmed in correction for temperature? Too bad, we must now compromise; at current we do not have to ability to account for this. So when we gain it, it will be an improvement). You want as few compromises as possible.

Meh, I'll stick with my 'Tude'.

Ahhh...good. I didn't know wrxer was a member here.

Now we just need Derek to pop in and provide some feedback.

Personally, I don't give a crap about having a detailed adjustment for every 250rpms across the range.

Unless somebody cares to spend untold dollars dialing a bike in on a dyno I don't see the point.
I don't race and I don't make money riding.

If somebody can show me two completely identical wr250's, with the exception of the EFI programmers, and their respective dyno charts, I have trouble believing one programmer will deliver a huge advantage over the other across the power range.

To me this is a lot like a debate between a Chevy owner and Chrysler owner.

If both are happy who cares? I like to offer that Ford exists.

I just take the opportunity, when presented, to mention that there are other choices besides the PC and FmF units.

motokid wrote:

Personally, I don't give a crap about having a detailed adjustment for every 250rpms across the range.

Unless somebody cares to spend untold dollars dialing a bike in on a dyno I don't see the point.
I don't race and I don't make money riding.

If somebody can show me two completely identical wr250's, with the exception of the EFI programmers, and their respective dyno charts, I have trouble believing one programmer will deliver a huge advantage over the other across the power range.

To me this is a lot like a debate between a Chevy owner and Chrysler owner.
Chryslers suck. Let's use FORD..*grins*

If both are happy who cares? I like to offer that Ford exists.
Yeah it does, but I digress.. Sorry Ed, Fords and me don't get along.

I just take the opportunity, when presented, to mention that there are other choices besides the PC and FmF units.

THANK YOU!!! Someone else that sees the logic in this! +100!

It's more about throttle response than peak dyno numbers; they are probably closest there as anywhere.

The way I see it, in terms of quantity of units, its the Power Commanders that are under represented on this board & SMJ so its why I pipe up about what else is out there. You two provide plenty of representation for the alternatives.

This is so dumb and I really don't see any point in this post. Like something buy it. We're all on the net and you have to be flat out dumb to not find something on it... I have less money then most and I got the PC5 Y cuz I'll get more out of it. May not get a lot more HP but throttle response is what I need going up the rocky hills I ride... And yes I looked at all of them... I also run a 12 up front and my swingarm is just fine ................

if it makes you happy go for it, just don't piss on what I got cuz you don't like it....
When I show up at a race they all say Tammy you need a real bike that thing is Foo Foo I'm having fun foo foo or not...

Buy the PC5 if you want to fuck with settings and maps and stuff...buy the 'Tude if you just want to get on and ride.

Look, I posted this thread here because Derek is a new member here and I'd like his comments in regards to things like the throttle response issue.

He designed the AI unit and he can answer about such things.

Without seeing comparative dyno charts it's always going to be a he said she said seat of the pants kind of debate.

There may be things designed into the AI unit that take signals from throttle settings. I don't know.

I did not knock or put down the PC unit anywhere. I always said they offer more customization possibilities.
I always said they are more complex if you want them to be. I also mentioned they are more expensive.
To the best of my knowledge I've not lied.

If "you" think the PC units are under-represented in any motorcycle forum I have to think you are trippin'.

Nobody , NOBODY - has ever heard of Attitude Industries unless it's by active word of mouth by current owners who heard about it the same way.

And I will continue to help advertise and market for them as long as I'm happy with their product and service.

So until Derek comes back and answers to some of the questions about throttle response and how his units may or may not take that into consideration there's really nothing to argue about.

You don't have to look hard to fine any of them. If 1000 people tole me to buy this one over that I would still look they all over and buy what is best for ME not you or the other 999.

As for plug and play. I paid 290.00 for mine and got 2 maps. One for stock and one for the pipe I'm running. Before the pipe went on the first map worked fine once the pipe went on the 2nd seem good. I can switch from map to map as I ride. One map will be my sand map and one will be my rocky map. All I do is hit a switch. This is Y I picked the PC5 I can run 2 maps and switch as I ride..

If something is the right part for you no one will need to sell it to you.... You seem to be pushing this or you would of just PMed the maker..

I see threads pop up pretty regularly asking "what is the "best" programmer".

Best for who? Best for what? "Best" is subjective right? Define "best".

The typical response is "PC or FmF".

To which I respond, "check out the AI stuff too."
I provide a link as well.

If I can get information straight from the designer/manufacturer that addresses some of the typical dialog about the differrences between the "others" and the one I use/like, then I consider that valuable information that may or may not help somebody make a more informed choice about what to buy.

If that designer/manufacturer can be quoted, or a link can be provided to our forum and specific quote that's even better. I don't know how the AI units work on that level. Derek does.

Simple as that.

.

SheWolf wrote:

Buy the PC5 if you want to fuck with settings and maps and stuff...buy the 'Tude if you just want to get on and ride.

Isn't that funny Mapping area

Interesting thread. I haven't looked into these units yet because my bike is still stock, but I will say... WRXer is bang on with what he's saying about throttle position and 3D mapping. I'm actually somewhat shocked to see that anybody would market something like the AI unit. Such overly simplistic tuning can lead to drivability problems, excessive fuel consumption, power deficit, and unreliability.

If you don't want to fuck with tuning to get your bike running right, just leave it stock.

Motokid, what info exactly are you looking for? Dyno charts comparing them will be pretty useless, as they won't show up the problems from 1D tuning.

How is a dyno chart "useless"?

It will show peak hp and torque across the entire rev range as well as any spikes, valleys, dips, flat-spots, or abnormalities.

I'm hoping that the guy who designed the AI unit will answer to some of these things so that definitive and educated responses can be made to these kinds of posts.

A single cylinder engine with one throttle body and one injector doesn't need the complexity that a 4 cylinder, 4 throttle bodied, 4 injector style motorcycle might need. Or does it?

I don't know. The actual designer and manufacturer might know. So I asked.

I've seen it posted that the PC units are basically designed for multi-cylinder applications while the FmF style units are more appropriate for single cylinder applications.

Is that true? I don't know. A designer might know.

is there something in the AI units software that gets a signal from a throttle position sensor? Derek will know.

Is there an awful lot more going on behind the "6 settings" that warrents some push-back when people poo-poo it as "too simplistic to be worth it"? Derek should know.

I'm just looking for some insight direct from the horses mouth about a product I'm happy to promote. But when pushed I can't really say much other than I'm happy with it. So I seek some education.

LOL

Life is tooo short to push other peoples goods.
Hey I love Mary Kay cost less then the top $$ skin care but it's soooo good for your skin... SheWolf what do you like on your skin???

A dyno chart is useless, because it doesn't tell you how the engine runs 90+% of the time. ie: at less than full throttle. This is why so many dyno tuners are so bad. They tune drag cars/bikes that only need to do two things: Idle, and full throttle for 12 seconds. That's why when you go to a drag strip, or a car show, most of the cars are trailered, and driven to their parking spaces at idle, if not pushed by hand. Look at any car show, and all the fancy cars with shiny exhaust headers making big power claims. If the header is shiny, that engine has never been run. There's so much crap in the engine tuning industry it's just incredible.

Educated? I was a Powertrain Engineer at Ford for 6 years, and trained to program the EEC IV powertrain controller. I have a Focus with a GT28R turbo system that I built from scratch and a Pectel T2 ECU that I programmed, making 250hp for over 60,000km and used for trackdays. Stock block, rods, pistons, never had the head off.

There is NO difference between a single cylinder and a multiple cylinder engine, as far as the ECU is concerned. Other than the obvious question of how many spark plugs and injectors is it running. Everything else is the same. Whether you have 1 cylinder, or 12, the physics of running that engine is the same. One spark per cylinder, (usually) one injector per cylinder. One crank position sensor, , Camshaft Position, TPS, barometric, maybe MAP or MAF, and then it goes from there depending on the complexity of the unit. Fuel pressure, fuel temp, O2, knock sensor, and on and on... The number of cylinders just determines how many coil and injector drivers you have. And if it's really sophisticated, you'll have individual spark advance and injector adjustments. But that's it.

The problems with the AI approach, as you've laid it out is this:

Cold start: The computer fuels the bike very rich, sort of like a choke. The AI would increase that even more, probably too much. It can't tell it's cold. It just sees a signal to the injector, and changes it.

Transient Fuel Enrichment: When you open the throttle fast, the computer squirts extra fuel into the intake to compensate for the way fuel sticks to the walls of the intake. The AI wouldn't know this is happening, it would just apply the correction blindly, possibly overfueling, causing a stumble just when you're asking for a burst of power.

Voltage Correction: This is applied to the fuel injector pulsewidth as a flat adder, not a ratio. It compensates for the extra time it takes the injector to open when battery voltage is low. For example, say the bike takes 4ms of injector on time to idle. But when battery voltage is low, you need another 2ms. 6ms total. If you wanted to add 25% more fuel, you'd want 1ms more, so 5ms. Plus the 2ms opening time, giving you 7. If you were using an AI tuned for 25% more fuel, it would add 25% to the 6ms, giving you 7.5. Too much.

Cruise: You've tuned it to run well at full throttle. But now when you're cruising, it's changing that fueling as well. If you're running too far away from 14.7:1, you'll either melt down the cat, or poison it. Either way, ruining it.

It just goes on and on and on.

Now, obviously there are people using the thing. Maybe it's fine, because realistically, the tuning isn't THAT far away from stock. Or maybe I'd ride your bike and tell you everything that's wrong with it that you never noticed before. I dunno. I wouldn't put my money on it.

Ideally, I'd prefer full control over the factory ECU. That's why I went with a T2 on my car, because I couldn't get it from the factory computer (you can, now). The PC is not full control, but at least it does what I consider the absolute mininum, which is to understand the load conditions, not just RPM.

motokid wrote:

How is a dyno chart "useless"?

It will show peak hp and torque across the entire rev range as well as any spikes, valleys, dips, flat-spots, or abnormalities.

I'm hoping that the guy who designed the AI unit will answer to some of these things so that definitive and educated responses can be made to these kinds of posts.

A single cylinder engine with one throttle body and one injector doesn't need the complexity that a 4 cylinder, 4 throttle bodied, 4 injector style motorcycle might need. Or does it?

I don't know. The actual designer and manufacturer might know. So I asked.

I've seen it posted that the PC units are basically designed for multi-cylinder applications while the FmF style units are more appropriate for single cylinder applications.

Is that true? I don't know. A designer might know.

is there something in the AI units software that gets a signal from a throttle position sensor? Derek will know.

Is there an awful lot more going on behind the "6 settings" that warrents some push-back when people poo-poo it as "too simplistic to be worth it"? Derek should know.

I'm just looking for some insight direct from the horses mouth about a product I'm happy to promote. But when pushed I can't really say much other than I'm happy with it. So I seek some education.

Dancamp wrote:

.

SheWolf wrote:

Buy the PC5 if you want to fuck with settings and maps and stuff...buy the 'Tude if you just want to get on and ride.

Isn't that funny Mapping area

Not really. It gives you one place to look for what others have set for theirs. Information is always good. I just find that most who have the DJ are fiddling with stuff, which is fine if that's what you like to do. The others you just set it and forget it...unless you want to screw around with it. I'd rather just get on and ride the fucking thing.

R_Lefebvre wrote:

I'm actually somewhat shocked to see that anybody
would market something like the AI unit. Such overly simplistic tuning
can lead to drivability problems, excessive fuel consumption, power
deficit, and unreliability.

Drivability problems? Can't say I'm experiencing that. Excessive fuel consumption? Uh...no. Unless you have the thing set for straight perfomance and you have it pinned, ok, I'll buy that. The DJ will do that too. Power deficit? Again, I'm experiencing the exact opposite. Unreliability? This thing has been more reliable than that shit fuel pump that ppl have been having problems with. I think in all fairness, to single out AI in all these points is off base. The DJ can also have those very same effects.

Tammy wrote:

Hey I love Mary Kay cost less then the top $$ skin
care but it's soooo good for your skin... SheWolf what do you like on
your skin???

Oh that's an easy one. Mud. It's free and hey, the big name spas use it for that very reason!

SheWolf wrote:

Tammy wrote:

Hey I love Mary Kay cost less then the top $$ skin
care but it's soooo good for your skin... SheWolf what do you like on
your skin???

Oh that's an easy one. Mud. It's free and hey, the big name spas use it for that very reason!

That's not the answer I had in mind!!!!!!!!!!!!

THAT works too. Nothin better than Pearl Drops Tooth Polish.

SheWolf wrote:

Dancamp wrote:

.

SheWolf wrote:

Buy the PC5 if you want to fuck with settings and maps and stuff...buy the 'Tude if you just want to get on and ride.

Isn't that funny Mapping area

Not really. It gives you one place to look for what others have set for theirs. Information is always good. I just find that most who have the DJ are fiddling with stuff, which is fine if that's what you like to do. The others you just set it and forget it...unless you want to screw around with it. I'd rather just get on and ride the fucking thing.

R_Lefebvre wrote:

I'm actually somewhat shocked to see that anybody
would market something like the AI unit. Such overly simplistic tuning
can lead to drivability problems, excessive fuel consumption, power
deficit, and unreliability.

Drivability problems? Can't say I'm experiencing that. Excessive fuel consumption? Uh...no. Unless you have the thing set for straight perfomance and you have it pinned, ok, I'll buy that. The DJ will do that too. Power deficit? Again, I'm experiencing the exact opposite. Unreliability? This thing has been more reliable than that shit fuel pump that ppl have been having problems with. I think in all fairness, to single out AI in all these points is off base. The DJ can also have those very same effects.

Tammy wrote:

Hey I love Mary Kay cost less then the top $$ skin
care but it's soooo good for your skin... SheWolf what do you like on
your skin???

Oh that's an easy one. Mud. It's free and hey, the big name spas use it for that very reason!

Yes mud works good and this is Y we ride off road but after the mud Mary Key keep the skin soft..

SheWolf wrote:

Buy the PC5 if you want to fuck with settings and maps and stuff...buy the 'Tude if you just want to get on and ride.

Quote :

I just find that most who have the DJ are fiddling with stuff, which is fine if that's what you like to do. The others you just set it and forget it...unless you want to screw around with it. I'd rather just get on and ride the fucking thing

All I want to say is YOU still don't understand the PC at all. How many times do I have to say this...I ordered my PC from Fuel Moto. They programmed a map into it for me & my mods based on their dyno tests & experience. Brown brought me a box, I opened it up & installed it on my bike & rode. Please tell me how with my PC5 I was "fucking with maps & stuff" & how you "just got on & rode" with your system of programming blinking & winking lights with nothing more than internet forum posts as guidance? I have mentioned this on this board before after your similar claims on more than one occasion. Quit giving others the wrong idea. The PC5 can be the simpilist user interface there is--abolutely NONE--if you want it to be. It can also be the most advanced--if you want it to be.

(note I did actually hook it up to my computer to make sure a map was loaded as they told me they were doing but I did not change a "fucking" thing)

Sidebar--I did read on the Dynojet website that the PC5 does have a user defined map input. This means the PC5 can read an analog 0-5 volt input & use it to further correct the map. You could tap in to the MAP or temperature sensors & get further map correction--one step closer to full ECU control. Note I won't be doing this as this would be WAY over my head & require extensive dyno time to do anything productive but it is exciting to see the control being extended to anyone with the know how to use it.