Stock ECU CO mod vs. aftermarket programmer

So, I've read lots and lots of posts re. "will I blow up my motor if I uncork my WRR and don't buy a programmer?", and "what programmer should I buy?", etc. My question to the group here is "why spend $$$ on a programmer if you can freely adjust the stock ECU?".

"Freely adjust the stock ECU" you say!?!?! YES!!!! Why doesn't anyone talk about this? Is it a dirty "secret" and now that I've posted it here men in black suits and dark glasses will show up at my house and cart me and my WRR away. This is so bizarre.....

Anyway, for those who don't know, you can make your stock ECU richer/leaner via the built-in diagnostics. The only catch is on the US bikes, you need to ground an unused wire found in the plug for the lean angle sensor. Once you do this, you can enter the DIAG mode, then enter the CO mode, and richen/lean between -30/+30 (stock the bikes are set to -2 in the US....a bit of proof that these bikes are "lean" from the dealer eh? ). The step by step details on how to do this are found in various places on the web, so I won't repost them here unless folks can't find 'em.

So....before the "bad men" come get me, why aren't more peeps using this freebie mod and instead mucking with setting up a $$$$ aftermarket programmer???

-SM

AFAIK that adjustment only changes the idle tuning and wont help with the mid-range lean spot.

Interesting theory. Do you have any hard data on this (web links, etc.)? I ask because if this setting is there to help bikes meet emissions standards WW (which is what folks smarter than me say it's for), it makes no sense to have it only change the idle mix since emissions testing is done at different rpm levels.....

Has anyone put their bike on a dyno and adjusted this setting? THAT would be the definitive answer to the "what's it do?" and "can I use this freebie mod instead of spending $$$ on a programmer?" questions.

-SM

I spent $185 on a programmer so I wouldn't have to spend $200 on dyno testing the "free way" to find out I needed the programmer after all...

You can be the fella to do that if you want.

Arkmage wrote:

I spent $185 on a programmer so I wouldn't have to spend $200 on dyno testing the "free way" to find out I needed the programmer after all...

You can be the fella to do that if you want.

I was hoping someone else was already that fella.

I guess I'm just trying to find out if there is some "mystery reason" why we MUST go out and pay $150+ for a programmer if we uncork our bikes, or if we can use the stock ECU and adjust it w/ a free mod. Peeps are reporting a setting of +2 is about perfect (up from -2) for the pipe/airbox mods I have (keeping the air temp/pressure monitor so it can adjust for temp and altitude). I guess I'll run with it for a while and keep an eye/ear on things (plug, listen for pings, etc) and adjust as needed.

-SM

Keep in mind also that the euro bikes have an O2 sensor and run closed loop. A lot of the guys I've seen running lots of mods without a programmer are running a euro model.

Since ours are open loop the CO mode may not have the same level of impact on the over all tuning of the bike.

The CO adjustment is the equivalent of your pilot air screw
It will make a slight difference throughout the rpm range but it will not richened the mixture where you need it to
If you cranked it to the point where it took away a lean spot in say the midrange it probably wouldn't idle
There's no short cuts and no easy way out

Great feedback everyone. Thanks!

Guess there's no "free lunch" today.

"Hello, BioHazard....yeah, I'll take your FMF programmer for my WRR please......". Thx for the tip on those guys Ark (from another thread). $185 to my door. You da man. I hate spending more $$$, but I hate blowing up my motor even more.

-SM

Keep in mind too, even if it did richen things up everywhere, thats not what we need. The bike needs as bit on the bottom, a good shot in the mid, and stock on the top. If you uncorked the bike and and if it did increase fuel all over, if you increased it enough to run good in the mid range the top end would be rich to the point that you would loose all horsepower gains that any uncorking might have gotten you.

0007onWR wrote:

The CO adjustment is the equivalent of your pilot air screw

+1

Also to this nonsense going around that the Euro bikes are the shit because they have an O2 senser & can adjust the fuel curve on their own---Like the Anti-Nowhere League song says "so f*****g what"---it will adjust them right to the crappy, doggy, POS air-fuel ratios programmed in.

Get a programmer.

The bike makes slightly more power and has a somewhat smoother powerband with a programmer. The CO adjustment works just fine too though, just not as 'precise' as the programmer's adjustments. I'm happier without the programmer and my CO set at +12 (stock -2) with a full FMF exhaust and minor airbox mods since it no longer stumbles and studders at mid to low rpm with low to mid throttle input.

Uk boy here, iv stripped all of the crap of of the bike, K&N, home made air inlet, arrows ti pipe and colector with oxygen sensor fitted.
I have no problems, no hesitation when opening the throttle, she runs sweet. And I screw her all the time and she has not missed a beat unlike my old girl when i screw her HARD !

There is no possibility that you are taking advantage of the exhaust system and air box mod if you don't have a programmer
Just because you have no symptom of lean does not mean it is not lean
I'm sure the 02 sensor bikes have an advantage but without a dyno test there is no way to tell if the bike is lean or rich

Dog that has never been off the porch syndrome...doesn't know what he's missin'...common round these parts.

0007onWR wrote:

There is no possibility that you are taking advantage of the exhaust system and air box mod if you don't have a programmer

How would you know? did I just imagine the 20% increase in performance on my bike after some mods plus my 02 sensor in a FMF pipe?

When we used a voltage meter to test the 02 sensor it was busy throughout the revs of the bike

He knows cause he's been a tech for years on Yamaha, not to mention is directly connected to Yamaha in more ways than one. Red knows his stuff, he doesn't just blow shit out his ass on a whim.

Well, before this thread completely degrades , I wanted to say thanks to everyone for your input. While I don't think my bike would have holed a piston without it, I did end up buying/installing a FMF Programmer. The good news is with it set to 3,5,3,1,1,1, the off-idle stumble is completely gone, so if nothing else, that's sorted. I'm running with the FMF Power Bomb and Q4 (so decat and EXUP gone), AIS removed, and my own "MonkeyBox(tm)" airbox mod. My "girlie bike" feels more Xena and less Barbie now.

Ride safe,
SM

So, I spent a week up in the mountains rompin' around before the snow flies, and have some observations re. the CO mod vs. programmer conundrum. I'm sure this will be a bit "controversial", but hey, isn't that part of why we post stuff? To throw stuff out there and let the community beat the crap out it? So, here goes......

As I was "testing" and dickin' around with the programmer, I came upon a setting that seemed to offer the best performance: 2,2,1.5,8,4,4

Look familiar? Yeah, it's basically the same settings as SheWolf, HF, Levity, et al. For those not familiar with the FMF programmer, the "interesting" numbers are the first three as they represent the amount of fuel that gets ADDED by the programmer to whatever the stock ECU is spitting out for Cruise, Acceleration, and Wide Open, respectively. Note that a setting of 1 is "off", meaning the programmer adds no additional fuel.

So what right? Well, here's the thing: Look at those numbers. They're low...real low. As in hardly adding any "extra" fuel at all low (the last 3 numbers represent rpm where "Cruise" is engaged, as a multiplier x approx. 125 rpm on top of 1000 rpm, so "8" means "Cruise" kicks in around 2k rpm, then the two "4"'s represent sensitivity or how quickly the extra fuel is added to "Acceleration" and "Wide Open", respectively). And note too that I've totally opened up my flow, from intake through exhaust, by nearly taking off the entire top of the airbox and adding a full FMF exhaust system.

My conclusion? I'm starting to agree with the folks who have said they opened up their systems like I have and haven't added a programmer with no ill effects. I think it would be simple for someone like HF, who seems to have an "in" with a quality dyno (and tech), to test this out by doing a dyno run with his programmer set to 1,1,1,x,x,x, as this would basically turn the programmer "off" and just use the stock ECU fuel output and see what the A/F number looks like across the rev range. Does it stay around 13 (which is ideal), or does it go "critically lean" (< 12) somewhere? My butt-dyno says the stock ECU does a fine job of adjusting the A/F mix all on its own, but it would be great to get confirmation of this.

Oh....and regarding the CO mod.....meh. The only thing I see it effecting is the idle/just-off-idle range, and have actually had to lower it to less than the stock value to get my bike back to starting reliably. I began having a devil of a time getting my bike to start (once started it ran great), and changing the C1 value to -4 (stock was -2, I had set it to +2 before my trip) seemed to fix it. So I guess from that perspective it was useful to be able to change it, but I'm still a bit baffled at the hard starting. Totally stock my bike always started within 2 revolutions of the starter.....

-SM

sock monkey wrote:

Oh....and regarding the CO mod.....meh. The only thing I see it effecting is the idle/just-off-idle range, and have actually had to lower it to less than the stock value to get my bike back to starting reliably. I began having a devil of a time getting my bike to start (once started it ran great), and changing the C1 value to -4 (stock was -2, I had set it to +2 before my trip) seemed to fix it. So I guess from that perspective it was useful to be able to change it, but I'm still a bit baffled at the hard starting. Totally stock my bike always started within 2 revolutions of the starter.....

-SM

After my exhaust and intake mods and a Dynojet PC3, mine became a bit harder starting. It still always starts though takes a couple revolutions more than before. I haven't messed my CO settings though I've been tempted to pull the PC3 just to see if that's the reason and not the mods themselves.

Chrispy1200 wrote:

After my exhaust and intake mods and a Dynojet PC3, mine became a bit harder starting. It still always starts though takes a couple revolutions more than before. I haven't messed my CO settings though I've been tempted to pull the PC3 just to see if that's the reason and not the mods themselves.

I guess I could do something similar and set my FMF to 1,1,1,x,x,x ("off") and set my C1 back to -2 (stock) and see what happens, but with "Cruise mode engagement" set to 2k rpm, the FMF shouldn't be dumping any extra fuel into the mix on start-up. It does act as if it's way rich when it's trying to start though, and fixing it by leaning out C1 to -4 confirms that......

Unfortunately mine wouldn't start with the starter when it had this issue. It would crank 1-2 times, pop once, then just crank and crank and I could smell gas, which is a dead giveaway that it was getting too much fuel (and I wasn't touching the throttle). The only way I could start it was to bump start it. Once started, it would sit and idle perfectly, purring like a kitten (well, with the FMF, maybe it purrs more like a lion ).

-SM

so i messed around with my C1 setting recently and couldn't really tell a difference, even when go up to +25 or down to -25 while riding. I assume I would want my bike to be more rich since these bikes come lean from the factory to pass emissions. I have mine set at +25 right now because I couldn't tell much of a difference and I had a trip up to Mammoth where I knew it needed to be more rich for the elevation. I live in SoCal and my stock setting was 0. I don't have any mods on my bike, just want it to be snappier off the bottom end. Anyone else have any input on what settings help? Thanks!

Probably the best mods on a budget are
1. unifilter flows better than K&N
2. open up air box two 3/4" holes and remove flapper
3. keep the exup and open up the stock exhaust (the wrr with stock cam timing needs back pressure for low end power)
4. adjust your CO and the TPS needs to be set at 18 - 98
then you dont need a controller

paulie1960 wrote:

Probably the best mods on a budget are
3. keep the exup and open up the stock exhaust  (the wrr with stock cam timing needs back pressure for low end power)
4. adjust your CO and  the TPS needs to be set at 18 - 98
then you dont need a controller

can you elaborate on how to do both?
#3 means just put on a slip-on muffler?
#4 what is TPS? I adjusted my CO to +25, didn't seem to do much

Thanks!

He says to open the stock exhaust up, so cut it open and derestrict it.

TPS = Throttle position sensor

skierd wrote:

The bike makes slightly more power and has a somewhat smoother powerband with a programmer.  The CO adjustment works just fine too though, just not as 'precise' as the programmer's adjustments.  I'm happier without the programmer and my CO set at +12 (stock -2) with a full FMF exhaust and minor airbox mods since it no longer stumbles and studders at mid to low rpm with low to mid throttle input.

^What he said. Perfect all through the rev range with these mods and +12 increase.
The power is quite outstanding & I'm coming off a XT12 Super Tenere.