Boy how times have changed

I remember just a few years ago it was all about performance and now it's all about being "environmentally friendly". No more loud and proud, balls to the wall 2 strokes. (Do they even make them anymore?). And did they fade away just because of they were too loud and an enemy to the Earth? Even in motocross racing, are the bikes these days really faster than they were, oh say 5-10 years ago? I don't mean to start a 2 stroke vs. 4 stroke discussion, but I'm just wondering where the emphasis is being placed these days with all bikes. I think the footprint is so small from dirtbikes/motorcycles compared to cars/trucks/SUV's/buses/planes/tractors, do they REALLY have to choke the fun out of our bikes?

Slowly, having places to ride and having bikes to ride at these places are being squeezed out.
Not because the environment is in any kind of trouble, but because somebody just doesn't want you out there doing that because it doesn't suit them.
This is why you can come under criticism for disturbing a patch of sand, or leaving tire tracks in the woods, and, heaven forbid!, make any kind of noise.
What would your grandfather have thought if he were handed a ticket for riding his motorcycle on his own property?
Gradually, we're being trained to accept this, or at the very least, not put up a fuss about it.

I feel that the motorcycle manufacturers, like Honda and Yamaha, have gone 4-stroke because they want to be aligned with the whole greening and enviro-friendly thing, not be against it.
It wouldn't surprise me if the tippity-top execs of these companies embrace the idea, just as long as they are allowed to sell lots of units and the 2-strokes we can't get here in countries like China.

The only Japanese 2-strokes left in the USA are the YZ-125, YZ-250, YZ-85, RM-85, PW-50, and Honda and Yamaha 50cc scooters.

It's not each individual bike that is troublesome. It's that there are more people using them at more places.

It's like the north of our country. 40 years ago you could trvel for hundred of miles without noticing human presence. Now you can find all kind of litter everywhere. Is this because the same people are being less carefull ? No of course it's just that there are more people getting to these places.

Personally I love two stokes for dirt riding just because of the exciting character they provide. The sound, the smell, the hit of power and the lack of compression braking give the bike a unique sensation. Light weight has always been part of the package too ... without even trying. And for even more fun, try riding a vintage two stroke from the 70s! Wow ! how did we survive those bikes?!!
I still have a 98 CR250 in the garage and it's an absolute rocketship. They are just a gas to ride and I'll probably never sell the thing. I may have to buy another two stroke dirt bike of some kind before they all go away!

For the street trail type bikes, a four stroke is absolutely the way to go! ... especially the high tech water cooled, fuel injected, counter balanced, six speed WRR type. I'm glad Yamaha stepped up to the plate and engineered such a nicely balanced package for the money.

I actually had a 99 and an 89 CR250. I let the 99 go a couple years ago and although I hated doing it, I sold my 89 last year in order to help pay for my WR. So it was worth it, but yeah, talk about a "rocketships", man both those bikes were beasts! Loud, smoking, piss everybody off within a mile radius beasts. Just nowhere to ride and a PITA to haul it around. I like my WR, wouldn't trade it for the world (unless it was for a 20lb lighter WR450R)!!!

What i would love to see someday is an electric motocross dual sport bike, one that makes no noise, has amazing torque, and gets 300 miles to a charge, and that can be charged in less than 5-10 minutes.

I've ridden the Zero off road, and it's amazing. Way faster than any two stroke of that wieght. Light, and incredibly fast with no noise except the crunching of the tires. The problem with it is the range of only 35 miles. But if they could fix that, you are talking one amazing machine that would probably be allowed FAR more places than current bikes are.

Two strokes have to die. Loud motorcycles have to die. Sorry, but I love the quiet thump thump thump of my stock WR250R, and I hate the loud braaaap of aftermarket exhausts and especially the whaaaaaa of a two stroke. Not to mention they just plain smell bad, regardless of whether you believe in global warming or not. Don't even get me started on the open pipe Harley's out there. One might sound cool for a few seconds, but can you imagine if all vehicles were that loud? Why should it be legal for one person if not for all? Makes no sense to me. They are getting tickets left and right, as are all the bikes that have aftermarket exhausts at most of the riding areas here (all the park rangers must have gotten sound meters for Christmas).

My point is this; If the technology exists to make a bike quiet and still have great power, then it should be quiet. Once battery powered rides become as easy to use as gasoline powered machines (and I think we're only a decade away) then gasoline powered bikes should be phased out. It's just a fact of life that there are more and more people on this planet every year, and the only way to co exist is to step on each others toes, ears and noses a lot less. In my opinion, you would see far less support for area closures if motorcycles made zero noise. Just imagine the hiker who has three two-strokes blow by him or three electric dirt bikes. Which way do you think he's gonna vote if the issue comes up to close that area to bikes?

There is always going to be someone who is offended enough by it to cause a fuss. I would never ride a single day of my life if everything was powered by electricity. Fortunately I'll be long dead by then. I want a gas motor and a good sounding exhaust, for me it's part of the experience. I'm all about a mildly loud bike, my truck on the other hand, which I drive everyday, is totally stock exhaust wise.

Dancamp pretty much captured the essence of it by pointing out that it isn't what one bike sounds like - or does - it's the numbers of us out there these days.

Back when I first started riding two strokes in my early teens, we were annoying, ignorant jerks (looking back on it now). We loved the sound of our two strokes when they were on the pipe, and if somebody else didn't like it, well then screw 'em, it sucked to be them. Rip up a wetland, throw mud all over the place? Right on, that's why I spent all the big money on that Trelleborg rear knobby. If somebody didn't like what we did to that riparian area and what lived there? Well, screw them too, catch me if you can. I'm kind of ashamed of that now, but at least I can plead the ignorance and arrogance of a kid. I know better now and hopefully the wildlife and habitat volunteer work I've done since I got a brain and became a result has compensated for the damage I did as a kid. Karma.

We got away with riding like that for as long as we did because you could probably count everybody who had a two stroke dirt bike within 60 miles on two hands. There wasn't enough of us to be enough of a pain in the ass, or to do enough damage to get the communities attention focused on removing the problem.

Now, around here, just about every truck driven by a male has either a quad, a dirt bike, or a sled in the back, depending on the season. And about half the SUVs have a set of touring skis or a mountain bike, again depending on the season. Some of us even switch hit between motorized recreation and non-motorized recreation. So now there's lots and lots of us out there, making the cumulative effect of noise and damage much greater, to the point we can't fly below the radar screen anymore because there's so few of us we can be ignored. At the same time, lots of other people also want to use those wilderness areas, and many of them are going there specifically to get into an unspoiled wilderness and not hear vehicles all the time.

That's the recipe for a clash of values. And while motorized recreation has every bit as much a claim to access for use as non-motorized use, being indifferent to the values of other users you're sharing the resource with is an invitation to getting kicked out on your ass. Other user groups are no different - mountain bikers who cling to the belief they can shred a mountain trail going as fast as possible, ripping by hikers, often find those trails suddenly closed to them. Some local trails have been closed to horse traffic, when the volume of that traffic led to the kind of trail damage horses do over time.

I still like to hear a two smoke racing bike on the pipe. I still like riding those bikes once in a while, with a rear tire throwing dirt everywhere. But there's tracks for that, in areas where people expect to hear that kind of noise. When I go out on public roads and lands, I ride a quiet bike, I don't roost multiuse trails, and I usually stop, and give way when I meet other users. I could be a dickhead about it and insist I can ride however I please as long as there isn't a law against what I'm doing. But there is a thing called recreation management planning going on these days, and those people I pissed off while enjoying the sound of my pipe or roosting out of corners just might be the ones who write the letter that tips the balance in favour of making a trail or area off limits to motorized access.

Besides, I am off the bike regularly, and when I'm out hiking I don't want to hear quads and motorcyles. I accept I'm sharing trails and areas with them, so fair enough I am going to hear them. But I don't agree that I should just suck it up and try and appreciate the sound of loud pipes echoing off mountain peaks and trails ripped up with spinning rear tires while quads and bikes blast by me in a cloud of dust. I ride a bike, and that could almost make me vote for closing those trails to motorized use.

The reality is dirt bikers (and mountain bikers, and horse riders, and quadders, etc) either choose to respect the values of others when sharing public lands (even when they have no legal obligation to), or the majority of the community will eventually decide our use is incompatible with the majority. And then we're screwed. It is bad enough there is a small segment of the population who will try and give us the boot (and mountain bikers, and horse riders, etc) no matter what. That is a fact. We can't change that, so to then decide we don't care if we piss off everybody else... what do we expect? No group, including us, has a RIGHT to use public lands in any manner we choose, so knocking heads with other users as though we do amounts to circumcising ourselves with a rusty tin can lid. It's going to be really messy, hurt a whole bunch, and we probably aren't going to be happy with the outcome.

I'm with Gus. If there was a noiseless electric bike out there that offered roughly equivalent performance to my WRR for roughly the same weight, and the range issue had a solution to enable long rides through the mountains, I'd be all over it. For one thing, I'm pretty sure I would see just as many elk, moose, sheep, goats, deer, etc as I used to see when I was riding a horse in those same areas. Sound has absolutely nothing to do with the experience of a dual sport ride to me. Unfortunately, I don't see that electric bike appearing in the foreseeable future.

In the meantime, we can show some mutual respect when exercising our privilege to share those public resources with others holding different views - or we can do what we want right up to the point we lose motorized access to those areas. The days when there was just a few of us and we could pretty much do what we wanted and it would be tolerated are long over. There's a lot of us now - but not enough to carry the day when we piss off people to the point they want motorized use banned on public lands.

I stay on roads and trails when I ride. I don't intentionally cause damage to the ground. Pretty much the only place I go that I'm not allowed is shale pits, which I don't care because I'm not partying, destroying trees or leaving trash everywhere like most do. When I'm out and I see mountain bikers and especially horse riders I slow down and make my bike as quiet as possible which seriously is not hard. Just because I'm riding a "loud dirt bike" doesn't mean I'm a disrespectful asshole. Or does it? Well I don't really care to be honest. I do my best not to disrespect but I'll have my motorcycle the way I want.

I couldn't have said it better than Jager.

The problem boils down to this:

A hiker isn't bothering anyone by his presence. A motorcyclist IS bothering some people by their presence. A LOUD, fast, dusty, arrogant motorcyclist is pretty much bothering EVERYONE by their presence.

It's the same thing as smoking. When I am sitting at a restaurant I am not affecting anyone by breathing in and out. A smoker however is affecting me by smoking. Guess what, it's banned almost everywhere now. The same thing will happen to two-stoke machines and anyone else who thinks they can annoy the heck out of a large group of people without consequences.

With this many people, what affects others will be banned. It's just fact. Therefore the solution is silence as much as possible, and respect for others as much as possible. My disgust with some riders when they go by me and then floor it right in front of my face is incredible. They couldn't wait a few dozen feet to get back on the gas? What about the idiots racing around blind corners? Really, they don't think that's going to end badly someday? It's these people (mostly young men) who ruin it for everyone, and then scratch their collective heads when a riding area is closed.

Bring on the super quiet WR250R with a stock pipe and some manners. Thanks.

Haven't motorcycles ALWAYS bothered certain people since their inception?

2 strokes are louder than 4 strokes?

Midnite171 wrote:

Haven't motorcycles ALWAYS bothered certain people since their inception?

Yep. There's always a small minority who don't want anyone but their type of use on public land.

But if you work at it hard enough, you can make it so you bother EVERYBODY.

Okay... so not EVERYBODY.

But... enough of a majority to successfully get areas closed to all motorcyclists, quiet and loud.

Back during the motorcycle's inception, there weren't so many of them. You could ride anywhere around Los Angeles in the mountains, anywhere, and never see another off road rider. Back then it didn't matter, stinky, loud, fast, who cared?

2011. Different story, unless your in the middle of Utah somewhere (which is a wonderful place to ride in solitude). Here around Los Angeles, it's a constant battle between riders and environ-mental-ists. Fortunately there is still a lot of riding around here, but on a busy weekend it gets tight...

Hey, I AM in the middle of Utah!
But from what I have seen, it is NOT about the noise level.
Those that want us banned from public lands are not saying
"hey keep the noise down and it's OK", no they want us
gone, all of us, bikes-ATVs-jeeps- anything with a motor. Someday
when you are out humming around on your electric bike and
they still give you dirty looks for bringing that MACHINE into THEIR
wild country- then what? I hope I don't live to see it.

I keep to the trail, I dont go WOT around hikers, I wave and smile
in hopes that I can leave a friendly impression- but I love the sound
of a gas engine. Smoker, 4stroker, big american V8...
And speaking of noise- we have to make some noise about keeping
areas open for us to enjoy. Our voices must be louder than those that
would have all areas closed except to hikers (I enjoy hiking too).

So I do not dream about electric bikes or devote my life to being
inoffensive. Where I live we have pushed back hard and have been building
a network of trails, hundreds of miles of designated trails
(The Piute ATV trails, etc). I can ride an unplated bike anywhere I want
in my hometown (Richfield), even down mainstreet and not be bothered.

You don't have to be an in your face a$$ but you can still enjoy the ride
with all that goes with it, and sometimes crack it open and listen to
that sweet music. Otherwise I would ride a MOPED

Ahh, well in the middle of Utah it's still ok, but for how long? My guess is long enough to have electric bikes (I was on the Paiute one time on a weekend and never saw another rider in two days of riding, amazing).

I love the sound of my Mustang GT, but I wouldn't miss it if I had the same vehicle functionality and you told me I could drive it for 1/16 the cost.

I drove a Tesla a year ago, what a rush. 0-60 in 3 seconds flat and 100% torque at 0 RPM. The future drivetrain is electric, it's just too good, but the question is still how to power that electric motor. Batteries just aren't energy dense enough. Yet...

If you are younger than 35, just wait... there's 7 billion humans on the planet today and in 20-30 years there will be 13-15 Billion and a generation after that, maybe 25-30 Billion. Times have only begun to change. We are in an exponential growth period where the numbers are staggering.

Ya times are changing, I think loud bikes suck, I think loud planes and loud boats suck too
It's 2011 and manufacturers can make clean quiet performance, I say do it
Electric isn't the answer right now, burning fossil fuels to make electricity and disposal of old batteries needs to be addressed before I can get behind it
The groups that want you out of the back country will just adapt to whatever you are riding out there anyway, they have a lot of money and a lot of members and will stop at nothing
The chose a bullet that suits them, it could be noise, emissions, damage, litter, caribou, the list goes on and on
They lie and dig up false science to back up their claims and if you want to fight it you have to prove false allegations are false
Up here for example they tried to get snowmobiles banned in a certain area by saying predators travel on the snowmobile tracks and eat the caribou, took years to prove it to be bullshit
By then they move on to another claim and you start over again
I think we shouldn't separate ourselves from other users, in fact we have to become one of them so that what effects us effects them

Shoootr wrote:

Hey, I AM in the middle of Utah!
But from what I have seen, it is NOT about the noise level.
Those that want us banned from public lands are not saying
"hey keep the noise down and it's OK", no they want us
gone, all of us, bikes-ATVs-jeeps- anything with a motor. Someday
when you are out humming around on your electric bike and
they still give you dirty looks for bringing that MACHINE into THEIR
wild country- then what? I hope I don't live to see it.

I keep to the trail, I dont go WOT around hikers, I wave and smile
in hopes that I can leave a friendly impression- but I love the sound
of a gas engine. Smoker, 4stroker, big american V8...
And speaking of noise- we have to make some noise about keeping
areas open for us to enjoy. Our voices must be louder than those that
would have all areas closed except to hikers (I enjoy hiking too).

So I do not dream about electric bikes or devote my life to being
inoffensive. Where I live we have pushed back hard and have been building
a network of trails, hundreds of miles of designated trails
(The Piute ATV trails, etc). I can ride an unplated bike anywhere I want
in my hometown (Richfield), even down mainstreet and not be bothered.

You don't have to be an in your face a$$ but you can still enjoy the ride
with all that goes with it, and sometimes crack it open and listen to
that sweet music. Otherwise I would ride a MOPED

bravo. Well put.

Silence is golden...If I could make my WR250R even quieter I would... same reason I spent the $$ for the can on my rifle...

I can get behind a lot of environmental causes and there are A LOT of worthy ones. The noise one, I don't know. Is it really an environmental issue? It's more of a personal preference issue. Some people just don't like loud noises. Whether it's screaming kids, loud fans at a sporting event, music, cars, trains, boats, jet skis, snowmobiles, construction work, barking dogs, planes, people, nagging wife, car racing, people mowing their lawn, snow blowers, rain, wind, thunder, birds or motorcycles,,,, there's always going to be noisy shit in this world. I agree that if you are on public trails where there are hikers and wild life, noise should definitely be kept at a minimum if possible, but if you are in a sand pit, in the middle of the woods or nowhere close to a neighborhood and especially a place specifically made for riding like at a motocross track, noise should not be an issue at all. You gotta expect it if you go there. I agree that when some punk on a 2 stroke is riding behind your house at 9 am and all day long, that will get irritating, but it could be your neighbor mowing his lawn or kids playing outside that could be just as irritating. IT'S NOT THE BIKES THAT PISS PEOPLE OFF, IT'S PEOPLE THAT PISS PEOPLE OFF!!!

Anyway, that all being said, I see everybody's points agree with a few of em!

Note to self: don't go riding in Luke308's back yard!

Luke308 wrote:

Silence is golden...If I could make my WR250R even quieter I would... same reason I spent the $$ for the can on my rifle...

Because of tons of restrictive federal/state/local licensing, zoning and permitting laws there are few backyard inventors like Hiram Maxim whose ingenuity solved the problem of your .308 and the noise of numerous industrial machines. Could you imagine Edison's nineteenth century Menlo Park lab in 2011 and what he'd have to go through to maintain that kind of laboratory in the current hyper-regulatory environment?

Look at what the CPSIA of 2008 could be doing to the youth motorcycle market?

The root of the problem is that it's no longer the powerless fringe elements that don't like your two smoke or the fact that your 606's leave ruts in the earth in rural America... or that your snowmobile spooks animals in Yellowstone and bends over grass and bushes.

It's that these former fringe folks have clout via major political parties. Cliffs: the CPSIA and the youth motorcycle ban. Can't ban the cycle, ban the lead that it has in it.

Luckily places like California have large enough numbers of off road riders that they can somewhat sandbag the enviorn mental ist fringe. Most states aren't so lucky.

I would have suppressors for my rifles and pistols too if I could afford them. Someday I'll break into the world of the NFA.

When electric vehicles become practical it will be interesting
to see how they co-exist with muscle cars, Harleys, and our bikes (etc.).
I would gladly drive an electric car just to give the finger to big greedy oil
companies. And when electric bikes start winning races and can have a
decent all day range I will get one (if I'm still riding). But sometimes I
will climb on that old R and remember how it was.
The price of gas will eventually make electrics dominant, then when
demand for oil subsides gas will again become reasonable. Then old bastards
like me will throw in a new set of rings and go out and be loud and offensive
once more. Some of you will ride with me, some of you will be pissed.