Trail-Tech Voyager

Any experiences with
http://www.trailtech.net/91-700.html
(GPS cockpit computer and gauges including rpm with WR250R/X compatible install kit)?

Comparison: http://www.trailtech.net/computer_comparison.html

I am thinking of getting one, but there are not a lot of user tests out there.

Regards, Phil

That's a good question Phil. I haven't heard of anyone removing the stock cluster and making one of those TrailTech's work alone. When you remove the stock cluster the bike won't run. Maybe they're running both units.

SheWolf wrote:

That's a good question Phil. I haven't heard of anyone removing the stock cluster and making one of those TrailTech's work alone. When you remove the stock cluster the bike won't run. Maybe they're running both units.

No removal of stock gauge. Would like to use the Trail-Tech as an addon. What I would like to know is the overall quality of the GPS unit. Signal reception, usability, failures, experiences, whatever. To me this unit seems to be a very interesting tracking and evaluating addon, also providing a scalar tacho display. But when searching the web, there are not many user reviews at all, it seems.
Regards Phil

Here are 10 pages of info that may be of use:
Interesting GPS Speedo! <-- linky

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When you remove the stock cluster the bike won't run.

Not true at all, as has been posted elsewhere.

See posts by 'stumo' here:
Who's got an aftermarket headlight? <-- linky

Just going by what I was told by a couple of techs is all. I've never done it, have no need to. The unit looks pretty sweet tho.

ramz wrote:

Here are 10 pages of info that may be of use:
Interesting GPS Speedo! <-- linky

Thanks a lot! I missed that one.

For me that unit would be useful for collecting a network of local tracks I might try out and would like to remember at a later point in time. I do not always have my GPS at hand. Also I would like it in combination with my Oregon GPS, since both share the same track format and SD card slot.
Regards, Phil

flatboarder wrote:

Any experiences with
http://www.trailtech.net/91-700.html
(GPS cockpit computer and gauges including rpm with WR250R/X compatible install kit)?

For me that unit would be useful for collecting a network of local tracks I might try out and would like to remember at a later point in time. I do not always have my GPS at hand. Also I would like it in combination with my Oregon GPS, since both share the same track format and SD card slot.

Different people use GPS in different ways for different purposes. I don't own and have never seen one of these, but I am licensed to do GPS surveys and use everything from inexpensive little handhelds to units that cost more than a down payment on a reasonable house. So I have some various experience with all sorts of GPS units.

I haven't seen or used one of these, but I did take a quick look at their sales shtick. My overall conclusion is that this unit might be useful if you desire a motorcycle computer that will give you a tach, speedo, operatiing hours, coolant temp, etc. The GPS functions are basic at best, although they try to make them seem wonderous indeed. If you want all the bells and whistles bike computer stuff and the most basic of GPS functions, then this might be it for you.

Lets start out with what it doesn't do - and if I make an error, somebody please point it out. I did a pretty fast speed read through their stuff.

First, it doesn't store nor display points of interest and waypoints.

It doesn't store nor display maps, background orthophotos, etc.

It displays one thing, and one thing only - tracks.

What they have done is taken a very inexpensive GPS board - possibly not even the most current SiRF chips - and stick it in a bike computer.

Let me interject at this point by saying I really don't like it when some vendor tries to blow smoke up your ass and tell you it's pixie dust. This is their explanation of why they don't offer and you don't need a mapping GPS:
On the trail, OHV (off-highway vehicle) riders do not typically utilize elevation data found on topo maps; instead, topo maps are used because of trail route information. Topo maps are mostly based on aerial photos from the 1950’s and 1960’s, so many are out of date and inaccurate. While some updated topo maps are available, the efforts to restore them focus on hiking trails, not OHV trails.

Because topo maps are not particularly well suited for use on OHV trails, Voyager provides a better means of collecting, displaying and sharing up-to-date OHV trail information. Routes may be imported into Voyager from standard GPX files, or exported for later review and sharing. Using Voyager’s trail-centric approach, riders can enjoy a superior experience using up-to-date trail maps.

You can find up-to-date trail information at Trail Tech’s OHV map website: www.OHVtrails.net. There you can plan your rides by overlaying a library of OHV trails and roads on top of detailed topographical maps and satellite images courtesy of Google Earth™. Create your own custom trail collection and upload it to your Voyager GPS dashboard. While OHVtrails.net currently covers only North America, it is being actively developed for other parts of the world. OHVtrails.net is provided free of charge for all to use.

For starters, perhaps wherever the person who wrote this rides, topo maps are not important. But that sure as hell is not true of most adventure riding. Topo maps are kind of useful when you get that "where the hell are we" feeling. Topo maps will also show you that there is a lake just a few yards off the track screened by trees, that there's a forestry campground ahead - or that maybe you're about to cross the park boundry, where some guy dressed in a Ranger Smith hat will confiscate your motorcycle.

Claiming they aren't very useful because their product is unable to use them is crap. Furthermore, no, not all maps have cultural data based on aerial photos from the 50's and 60's. That is either outright bullshit or demonstrates a complete lack of knowledge of how ground truthing is done by USGS and NRCAN. Even if their comments about the cultural data were true... I don't know about you, but the mountains, lakes, rivers, and streams around here are still pretty much exactly the same as they were 50 years ago as far as location, shape, elevation, etc go. Maybe not where these boys are from, but certainly up here in the Rockies.

www.OHVtrails.net may grow to be a handy resource some day - but it is no different than other online map repositories such as DualSportMaps. It's simply a storage place for .gpx files; nothing special, no marvellous new software. I didn't bother to see whether it supported the uploading and downloading of point data included in .gpx files, or just line data.

Other points:
They claim the advantage of being able to turn track logging on and off while others can't. Nonsense, most relatively newer Garmin units allow you to do the same.

They claim having a front wheel sensor allows them to stop logging until you start rolling again. Big deal - so does a recreational GPS set to log at distance intervals instead of time intervals.

Ultimately, this is a very simple, limited, basic GPS included with a comprehensive motorcycle instrument cluster. If GPS isn't that big a deal to you but the coolant temperature of your WRR, voltage, tach, and hour meters are, then this might be just the ticket.

If you want to record tracks for a local trail network, your existing GPS will do a much better job - and allow you to collect waypoints and points of interest at the same time while you're at it. I would leave this unit at home before I would forget to bring along a real GPS.

Speaking only for myself, because many others are lovers of many gauges, I have no use for a tach, coolant readouts, operating hours, voltage readout, etc. The WRR seems pretty much bulletproof so far, with no known issues that require keeping an eye on these readouts to prevent problems being created. So I see the instrument portion of this product as an ingenious solution to a non-existent problem. That leaves the GPS, which is minimalist in function and ability at best.

But that's just me. Somewhere, there's a WRR rider looking at this and thinking "Thank GOD, somebody finally made a proper instrument cluster for this bike."

Thanks Jaeger, for your conclusion. This is something I will consider for sure.

Jäger wrote:

I haven't seen or used one of these, but I did take a quick look at their sales shtick. My overall conclusion is that this unit might be useful if you desire a motorcycle computer that will give you a tach, speedo, operatiing hours, coolant temp, etc. The GPS functions are basic at best, although they try to make them seem wonderous indeed. If you want all the bells and whistles bike computer stuff and the most basic of GPS functions, then this might be it for you.

I would use it to collect tracks, forming my own regional all terrain map, that would always be present on this small computer. This looks like a simple job not requiring installing and wiring up my Oregon for every ride I take. However, in my opinion they should provide the remote tripmaster switch for this unit to make it perfect.

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Lets start out with what it doesn't do - and if I make an error, somebody please point it out. I did a pretty fast speed read through their stuff.

First, it doesn't store nor display points of interest and waypoints.

Right, but you can simply store waypoints. So, I guess it should somehow be able to display them. However, it would not store any textual information for them.

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It doesn't store nor display maps, background orthophotos, etc.

Right, this makes it simple and cheap. It collects you tracks as your own map, nothing else. Basically a grafical GPS logger as far as I understand it. Engine and altitude data will be added to the GPS data, I think. I like the design, it is lightweighted, small, can easily be fitted and connected to vehicle power source (even polarity does not matter) and it has got a display and backlight suitable for that kind of usage.

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It displays one thing, and one thing only - tracks.

What they have done is taken a very inexpensive GPS board - possibly not even the most current SiRF chips - and stick it in a bike computer.

They claim good GPS signal reception. I cannot tell. Maybe this is a major point. How about Satfix and so on. Something I would appreciate a real world user statement upon. There is no use if we encounter 15 minutes satfix time.

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Let me interject at this point by saying I really don't like it when some vendor tries to blow smoke up your ass and tell you it's pixie dust. This is their explanation of why they don't offer and you don't need a mapping GPS:

Yes, in fact. I did wonder about their strange argueing about topo maps myself. Topografical information is valuable. However, I believe it would be useful even without topo maps. For sure, this would depend on the riding spot and use case. My idea is probably using my Oregon for initial exploring (if appropriate, together with the Voyager) and using the Voyager for recording and keeping tracks. This way my personal tracks are always at hand, since the Voyager would be fixed at the vehicle at any rides.

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For starters, perhaps wherever the person who wrote this rides, topo maps are not important. But that sure as hell is not true of most adventure riding. Topo maps are kind of useful when you get that "where the hell are we" feeling. Topo maps will also show you that there is a lake just a few yards off the track screened by trees, that there's a forestry campground ahead - or that maybe you're about to cross the park boundry, where some guy dressed in a Ranger Smith hat will confiscate your motorcycle.

Absolutely. I believe one should think of the Voyager only as a kind of track recorder, but maybe not an exploration device.

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www.OHVtrails.net may grow to be a handy resource some day - but it is no different than other online map repositories such as DualSportMaps. It's simply a storage place for .gpx files; nothing special, no marvellous new software. I didn't bother to see whether it supported the uploading and downloading of point data included in .gpx files, or just line data.

Also it does not cover for instance Europe at all. But that might change.

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Other points:
They claim the advantage of being able to turn track logging on and off while others can't. Nonsense, most relatively newer Garmin units allow you to do the same.

Sure, but I think it is very easy with the Voyager. With the Oregon for instance this is something you need to turn on and off within a second level submenu not really accessible wearing riding gloves. Maybe the Voyager offers better handling on the bike, but this is something I would also be looking for user experience. Also the Voyager will store far more trackpoints than the Oregon.

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They claim having a front wheel sensor allows them to stop logging until you start rolling again. Big deal - so does a recreational GPS set to log at distance intervals instead of time intervals.

But with the wheel sensor this is more acurate and also works when accelerating or decelerating, also it will work without GPS signal, and finally I like speedo and odo driven by frontwheel which is far more acurate when riding real offroad with many turns then stock rear wheel sensors as like WR250R speedo. But this is not a special matter of the Voyager, for sure.

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Ultimately, this is a very simple, limited, basic GPS included with a comprehensive motorcycle instrument cluster. If GPS isn't that big a deal to you but the coolant temperature of your WRR, voltage, tach, and hour meters are, then this might be just the ticket.

Yes, I like the idea of it having everything right at hand without teking care for any external equipment. I do not need coolant temperature, tach data, voltage for riding the WR (yes, it appears to be bulletproof), but I might be interested for technical reasons.

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If you want to record tracks for a local trail network, your existing GPS will do a much better job - and allow you to collect waypoints and points of interest at the same time while you're at it. I would leave this unit at home before I would forget to bring along a real GPS.

For everyday riding and trying out this or that it would probably be easier with the simple voyager. However, for exploring new terrain the Garmin would be a good idea indeed. I like the idea that both devices should be compatible with respect to GPX format and SD slot.

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Speaking only for myself, because many others are lovers of many gauges, I have no use for a tach, coolant readouts, operating hours, voltage readout, etc. The WRR seems pretty much bulletproof so far, with no known issues that require keeping an eye on these readouts to prevent problems being created. So I see the instrument portion of this product as an ingenious solution to a non-existent problem. That leaves the GPS, which is minimalist in function and ability at best.

To be honest, I would probably install the voyager to the Tenere as it's final location, but I am not yet sure about this. I personally do not like installing lots of things at the handlebar and I hate installing huge GPS holders, RAM mounts, TT cradles, whatever. I very much like a clean handlebar and cockpit, and the voyager could be integrated into it very well, at least for the Tenere. With the WR it is not so easy to find a suitable location.

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But that's just me. Somewhere, there's a WRR rider looking at this and thinking "Thank GOD, somebody finally made a proper instrument cluster for this bike."

In fact I think this is the way to go. Also I am wondering why Garmin for instance does not offer such a value added bike computer with maps and everything. They do it for bicycles, but not yet for motorcycles. Fixed navigational devices seem to be ok with cars but not yet with motorcycles where you still need to fiddle with wires and strange, huge and mostly inappropriate holders.
Another idea (at least for the Tenere providing a perfect location behind windscreen) would be installation of an IPX7 7" android tablet fulfilling any task from nav to phone, mail, route planning, gathering pictures and videos and whatever might arise at lengthy trips. Not exactly the same than what the voyager would be used for, but also something I am thinking of.

Phil

flatboarder wrote:

I would use it to collect tracks, forming my own regional all terrain map, that would always be present on this small computer. This looks like a simple job not requiring installing and wiring up my Oregon for every ride I take. However, in my opinion they should provide the remote tripmaster switch for this unit to make it perfect.

First, generally speaking, you might want to rethink the automatic "wire the GPS to the bike power" reaction so many people have.

If you're working for me on one of my GPS survey crews and I find you with the GPS plugged into power, you're fired. We have had enough incidents of branches, other equipment, whatever catching GPS/Antenna cables and ripping them out to learn our lesson. And when you have a leased Astar sitting there doing nothing with the pilot happily playing crib with the mechanic - that you're paying for - while you sit and wait for repair parts to arrive, you start to smarten up. Even the design of professional GPS is recognizing this - all signal cables, antenna cables, etc are being replaced by Bluetooth, even with the problems that can come with that, just to get rid of those cables.

What we do is run the GPS on battery - while the alternate batteries charge off power safely out of sight. You can have a power outlet to your tank or tail bag, and have your charger in there charging your replacement battery while your GPS sits in the cradle running on battery. No power cables attached to get snagged, launch your GPS, get ripped out of the inlet, etc. Changing the battery at the end of each day is just part of data management.

If 70 routes/tracks combined (or whatever) is not sufficient for holding your regional trail map, then perhaps this has an application. Frankly, making your own Garmin transparent maps (meaning, your standard Garmin GPS mapsheets are visible underneath) is easy enough that if I ran into that problem I would just make a Garmin trail mapsheet and load it into my GPS. Then your local trail maps are part of your GPS maps, not tracks and routes. Some clubs in North America even do this as part of what their club does i.e. the QuadSquad in the Crowsnest Pass has a very nice local trail mapsheet for download at their website.

Interestingly enough, professional GPS units like Trimbles that are used to log highway TCN data, FSR data, etc do not have anything like tripmaster switches. But the objective there is precision mapping, not constantly switching odometer and trip functions. There may be GPS units purpose built for rally racing that have this kind of external controls, I don't know.

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Right, but you can simply store waypoints. So, I guess it should somehow be able to display them. However, it would not store any textual information for them.

I missed the fact it will store waypoints. If it actually will display them, then I missed that as well. Even if it does display waypoints, it is not terribly useful if it doesn't allow labels, proximity alarms, and the ability to navigate to a waypoint, course and distance to a waypoint, etc. Waypoints and POIs are pretty valuable tools for navigation and simply being aware of information regarding surrounding features.

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Engine and altitude data will be added to the GPS data, I think. I like the design, it is lightweighted, small, can easily be fitted and connected to vehicle power source (even polarity does not matter) and it has got a display and backlight suitable for that kind of usage.

Cabling to power will not be the same issue if you have it buried in the instrument cluster or some type of rally fairing. I still very much favour a GPS that clicks out of the mount and goes in my shirt pocket when I leave the bike. If I choose to hike a ways to take pictures, see the view where the bike can't go, etc, I still have my GPS with me for geocoding photos if I choose to do so or whatever.

Unless you can calibrate altitude to a real known height before leaving, altitude readouts are a crapshoot at best. When GPS engineers build GPSs with fixed user input, they have to choose which Dilution of Precision mode the instrument will operate in. There are seven different modes of DOP used by GPS units to fix position (and maybe more by now), but the most common ones are Position Dilution of Precision, Horizontal Dilution of Precision, and Vertical Dilution of Precision. PDOP is most commonly used for surveying, HDOP for mapping purposes, and VDOP for vertical surveys where altitude accuracy is important. That GPS almost certainly uses HDOP or perhaps just maybe PDOP, meaning altitudes are probably a ballpark figure at best. There is a reason that most recreational GPS units allow you to calibrate your altitude to a known point and then enter the barometric pressure - what do you think they're using to display altitude?

Ask them for a data sheet that shows their accuracy claims for position and altitude. And then ask them what they are measuring those confidence intervals in. CEP? RMS? Two sigma? Three sigma? You can get pretty impressive accuracy figures if you collect them under CEP (50/50 probability).

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They claim good GPS signal reception. I cannot tell. Maybe this is a major point. How about Satfix and so on. Something I would appreciate a real world user statement upon. There is no use if we encounter 15 minutes satfix time.

They can claim what they want - I don't see an antenna on that thing anywhere. Which doesn't necessarily mean anything, but look at the better recreational GPS units out there and professional GPS units. Notice that they all have a very obvious antenna on them. What does this company know that Trimble, Garmin, DeLorme, etc don't regarding signal reception?

Anyway, easy enough. Just ask them for some specific data on their antenna performance. They must have the test results somewhere, right?.

Unless it is truly horrible, I would not worry much about time to fix when first starting it up - unless you just moved the unit hundreds of Kms since the last time you turned it off.

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Yes, in fact. I did wonder about their strange argueing about topo maps myself. Topografical information is valuable. However, I believe it would be useful even without topo maps. For sure, this would depend on the riding spot and use case. My idea is probably using my Oregon for initial exploring (if appropriate, together with the Voyager) and using the Voyager for recording and keeping tracks. This way my personal tracks are always at hand, since the Voyager would be fixed at the vehicle at any rides.

It sounds to me like you might significantly benefit from teaching yourself how to make your own Garmin maps so you can load compilations of trails as maps, instead of as just tracks - or learning how to run GIS software if you're really seriously into mapping.

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Also it does not cover for instance Europe at all. But that might change.

OHVtrails.net does cover Europe - just spin the globe and you'll see Europe. I just uploaded a .gpx of part of the Route des Grande Alpes tour - no feedback from the website and it didn't become visible, so it appears that perhaps they have a moderator that decides whether or not uploaded .gpx tracks become visible on their website or not. Curious

There are much, much better websites than OHVtrails.net for storing and retrieving .gpx tracks. Check this thread right here on this forum:
https://wr250rforum.forumotion.com/t3920-warehouses-of-dual-sport-tracks-and-routes

Both mentioned there are equally good - Dual Sport Maps would be my first choice, but I upload my trip data to both those websites as they both have some unique strengths missing in the other. Dual Sport Maps is the website being most aggressively developed. OHVtrails.net is a pretty weak contender compared to those two.

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Also the Voyager will store far more trackpoints than the Oregon.

I'm not sure what Oregon you have. The Oregon 400t can hold 501 tracks, up to 10000 trackpoints, and the Active Track up to 10000 trackpoints. That's over 500km even manually set to log a point every 50 meters - and probably closer to about 1500 kms if set to "Auto" and "most often" for high precision logging with the Garmin logarithm. If that isn't enough for you on a day's ride, then you probably would benefit from learning how to make your own Garmin maps as the result would be superior to what the Voyager will offer.

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I like speedo and odo driven by frontwheel which is far more acurate when riding real offroad with many turns then stock rear wheel sensors as like WR250R speedo.

If your riding style requires that kind of speedo and odometer precision, then this is probably a good piece of kit for you. Speed within a few kms/hr and odo within 30 meters or so works for me. If you're into rally type riding, you are doing something I have never done and I simply don't know enough about what you require to comment.

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With the WR it is not so easy to find a suitable location.

I see the WR as a very different critter than the Tenere, and not just in size. I see the WR as a minimalist, lightweight exploration bike, and for me that means stock instrumentation is just fine with the addition of the Speedohealer. Beyond that, I want a handheld GPS on there somewhere and a SPOT. Everything else - for me - is just unnecessary clutter.

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Also I am wondering why Garmin for instance does not offer such a value added bike computer with maps and everything. They do it for bicycles, but not yet for motorcycles. Fixed navigational devices seem to be ok with cars but not yet with motorcycles where you still need to fiddle with wires and strange, huge and mostly inappropriate holders.

Probably because they don't see enough market for such devices to market them - DeLorme doesn't make such GPS devices, nor does Lowrence. The recreational GPS market is pretty competitive, and if any of these companies thought there was a market, they would be all over it. There's far more cyclists than motorcyclists out there, and far more of them are into monitoring their heartrate, cadence, etc than you'll find motorcyclists unhappy with their stock motorcycle instrumentation. Which allows the folks making the Voyageur to try and find a niche. You'll notice that even over on ADV, people aren't falling all over themselves buying their products.

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Another idea (at least for the Tenere providing a perfect location behind windscreen) would be installation of an IPX7 7" android tablet fulfilling any task from nav to phone, mail, route planning, gathering pictures and videos and whatever might arise at lengthy trips. Not exactly the same than what the voyager would be used for, but also something I am thinking of.

That is something I would give far more consideration to than the Voyageur. I have one of these for some GPS survey applications, although I don't use it in quite the same manner as you do (you won't be getting Web connectivity in most of the places I go, for example):



Trimble Recon

Where do you live, by the way?

Jäger wrote:

First, generally speaking, you might want to rethink the automatic "wire the GPS to the bike power" reaction so many people have.

If you're working for me on one of my GPS survey crews and I find you with the GPS plugged into power, you're fired.

If that applies to you, fine. Maybe an issue of professional GPS usage. For me as a non professional user this is extremely useful. I am riding or travelling with minimum baggage. No additional weight oder space for batteries, chargers, whatever. I have been supplying the GPS with vehicle power at bicycle (dynohub) and motorcycles for many thousands of kilometers without bad issues.

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We have had enough incidents of branches, other equipment, whatever catching GPS/Antenna cables and ripping them out to learn our lesson.

Not a single one for me. As I said I prefer GPS installation at non exposed locations. I do not use TT cradles, RAM mounts, arms, whatever.

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Even the design of professional GPS is recognizing this - all signal cables, antenna cables, etc are being replaced by Bluetooth, even with the problems that can come with that, just to get rid of those cables.

This also was the idea with the android tablet, but in my experience, bluetooth is not very reliable. At least what I find when using my JVC car kit with several cellphones, which gives strange issues in many cases. I would not rely on that in professional environment.

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What we do is run the GPS on battery - while the alternate batteries charge off power safely out of sight.

Something I would try to avoid. I will not carry a charger with me just to be able to continue running a GPS device over some lengthy trip.

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You can have a power outlet to your tank or tail bag

No tank bag, no tail bag.

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, and have your charger in there charging your replacement battery while your GPS sits in the cradle running on battery. No power cables attached to get snagged, launch your GPS, get ripped out of the inlet, etc. Changing the battery at the end of each day is just part of data management.

Sounds cumbersome. This is something I do not spend any thoughts upon, because it perfectly works the way I like it to.

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If 70 routes/tracks combined (or whatever) is not sufficient for holding your regional trail map, then perhaps this has an application. Frankly, making your own Garmin transparent maps (meaning, your standard Garmin GPS mapsheets are visible underneath) is easy enough that if I ran into that problem I would just make a Garmin trail mapsheet and load it into my GPS. Then your local trail maps are part of your GPS maps, not tracks and routes. Some clubs in North America even do this as part of what their club does i.e. the QuadSquad in the Crowsnest Pass has a very nice local trail mapsheet for download at their website.

Well, I want it simple. I just want to record some tracks and keep it at hand without spending any additional work on it. Creating maps or whatever is not my occupation. In fact, this is the reason I like the simple way of doing with the voyager.

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Interestingly enough, professional GPS units like Trimbles that are used to log highway TCN data, FSR data, etc do not have anything like tripmaster switches. But the objective there is precision mapping, not constantly switching odometer and trip functions. There may be GPS units purpose built for rally racing that have this kind of external controls, I don't know.

Yes, and i do not think one should put the voyager into relation with professional GPS usage. I think it is targeted completely different. To me it would matter if it is not 100% simple and straight forward at use. This is something I was hoping user could tell about.

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I missed the fact it will store waypoints. If it actually will display them, then I missed that as well. Even if it does display waypoints, it is not terribly useful if it doesn't allow labels, proximity alarms, and the ability to navigate to a waypoint, course and distance to a waypoint, etc. Waypoints and POIs are pretty valuable tools for navigation and simply being aware of information regarding surrounding features.

Since this is no touristic application in my case, I would for instance simply create a waypoint when passing by a nice looking trail, that I would like to mark for later usage. So if I find a waypoint on the self created map, I know there is something to try out. That is all I would use it for. It looks simple. For me it would fail if it turned out not to be simple in the end.

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Cabling to power will not be the same issue if you have it buried in the instrument cluster or some type of rally fairing. I still very much favour a GPS that clicks out of the mount and goes in my shirt pocket when I leave the bike. If I choose to hike a ways to take pictures, see the view where the bike can't go, etc, I still have my GPS with me for geocoding photos if I choose to do so or whatever.

This is the way I install my Oregon. It is mounted immediately at the handlebar without any big holder. Not perfect, but in no way exposed and 100% safe up to now. The voyager would integrate even better, I would hope.

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Unless you can calibrate altitude to a real known height before leaving, altitude readouts are a crapshoot at best.

Strange enough my Oregon creates good altitude values (good enough for me) as long as i do not touch the screen which gives unwanted peaks due to internal pressure. There was no need for calibration up to now. It is a matter of needed accuracy I guess. For my non professional usage it is perfect.

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what do you think they're using to display altitude?

For my Oregon: something that is related to pressure, I guess. Only this explains those peaks when touching the screen.

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Ask them for a data sheet that shows their accuracy claims for position and altitude. And then ask them what they are measuring those confidence intervals in. CEP? RMS? Two sigma? Three sigma? You can get pretty impressive accuracy figures if you collect them under CEP (50/50 probability).

But then, to me this is not an issue when argueing about the voyager. I would consider it as some sort of plug&play device with simple usage. If other users can state, signal reception is ok, it would be ok for my as well. I will not go any deeper into GPS technology. I am only a user.

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They can claim what they want - I don't see an antenna on that thing anywhere. Which doesn't necessarily mean anything, but look at the better recreational GPS units out there and professional GPS units. Notice that they all have a very obvious antenna on them. What does this company know that Trimble, Garmin, DeLorme, etc don't regarding signal reception?

There are several Garmin devices without a visible antenna. The voyager BTW has got an internal antenna and additionally a plug for an external antenna if required. So I guess one could add a better antenna in case. Do not know whether this would help, however.

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Anyway, easy enough. Just ask them for some specific data on their antenna performance. They must have the test results somewhere, right?.

But this would be something I could not interpret at all. To me it is ok, if other users tell me it is ok.

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Unless it is truly horrible, I would not worry much about time to fix when first starting it up - unless you just moved the unit hundreds of Kms since the last time you turned it off.

Oh, I do! My first navigational device (an elder SiRF chipset) took 15 min or more at cold start, no matter whether it had been moved or not. No way to handle this.

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It sounds to me like you might significantly benefit from teaching yourself how to make your own Garmin maps so you can load compilations of trails as maps, instead of as just tracks - or learning how to run GIS software if you're really seriously into mapping.

I am not seriously into it. I want something that is simple, durable and easy in use, ind therefore I like the idea of the small voyager. There is no need making my own maps. I just like to record local tracks to be able to recall them anytime I ride along and search for alternatives.

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Also it does not cover for instance Europe at all. But that might change.

OHVtrails.net does cover Europe - just spin the globe and you'll see Europe.

:)
Yes I know. What I was saying: there are no tracks at all one could download and use.
However, this is not an issue, since for any kind of trip or travelling I create my tracks using gmap and gmaptogpx which is simple and useful.

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I just uploaded a .gpx of part of the Route des Grande Alpes tour - no feedback from the website and it didn't become visible, so it appears that perhaps they have a moderator that decides whether or not uploaded .gpx tracks become visible on their website or not. Curious

Interesting. Well, in my case it would not be an intention to share those tracks I collect, since these would be only local fragments for everyday use.

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There are much, much better websites than OHVtrails.net for storing and retrieving .gpx tracks. Check this thread right here on this forum:
https://wr250rforum.forumotion.com/t3920-warehouses-of-dual-sport-tracks-and-routes

Thanks, I will have a look at it.

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I'm not sure what Oregon you have. The Oregon 400t can hold 501 tracks, up to 10000 trackpoints, and the Active Track up to 10000 trackpoints. That's over 500km even manually set to log a point every 50 meters - and probably closer to about 1500 kms if set to "Auto" and "most often" for high precision logging with the Garmin logarithm. If that isn't enough for you on a day's ride, then you probably would benefit from learning how to make your own Garmin maps as the result would be superior to what the Voyager will offer.

With my 400t I get into trouble when riding trips with more than 300km. We did some Italy daytrips over small roads with 750-800km, and we had to split track recording into 3 parts, otherwise some part would be missing. I used automatic logging. When using those tracks at my bicycle trainer at home for winter training (riding nice Italian mountain roads within google earth) I found out logging had been quite poor. The tracks were not very accurate.

The Voyager has got a limit of something like 70000 waypoints for one big track, just in case. Thats somewhat better than the Oregon.

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If your riding style requires that kind of speedo and odometer precision, then this is probably a good piece of kit for you. Speed within a few kms/hr and odo within 30 meters or so works for me. If you're into rally type riding, you are doing something I have never done and I simply don't know enough about what you require to comment.

For me that is not related to rallye riding. But when doing enduro tracks for a day or so, it would be interesting how many kilometers I got before getting weak and exhausted. This kind of measurement requires front wheel sensor as opposed to rear wheel sensor or GPS measuring (our endurotracks are muddy and small and have got lots of turns and corners, since we have no big riding locations unfortunately).

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I see the WR as a very different critter than the Tenere, and not just in size. I see the WR as a minimalist, lightweight exploration bike, and for me that means stock instrumentation is just fine with the addition of the Speedohealer. Beyond that, I want a handheld GPS on there somewhere and a SPOT. Everything else - for me - is just unnecessary clutter.

It absolutely is. Those bikes are quite different. This makes my decision a bit difficult. Maybe getting two voyagers. But not now. Just like to try it out.

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You'll notice that even over on ADV, people aren't falling all over themselves buying their products.

But strange enough, everybody likes to buy mechanical roadbooks for instance. Roadbooks are part of some rallye reglements, but actually are totally outdated items. There are small electronik roadbooks, there is an android app for roadbooks and there is no use for it with current GPS hardware as long as GPS signal is available. I think most people buy things because they are quite common. Anyway, not an issue here.

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That is something I would give far more consideration to than the Voyageur. I have one of these for some GPS survey applications, although I don't use it in quite the same manner as you do (you won't be getting Web connectivity in most of the places I go, for example):

Navigational issues should work without any web connectivity. Web would only be available at hotels or bars probably, but not for riding. However, I could do trip planning in the evening, probably, and a 7" tablet should be 100% capable of doing so. This is something I like with this idea.

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Where do you live, by the way?

Near Salzburg, Austria.
Kind regards, Phil

To be up front, I have a Voyager installed on my WR2 but have not given it a good workout yet. I bought it because I will be running the TAT this summer and this unit loads the entire TAT at one shot! It is simple to use, and it will also allow me to reset the mileage on the trip meter (there are two of them) very easily whenever I leave the trail and rejoin for any reason. That allows me to keep my distance in sync with the TAT route which may or may not be useful. I will also have a Garmin 60CSx along for the info it can provide. The fact that the Voyger is not a full blown GPS is not an issue for me as I see it as primarily a routes and tracks tool. It gives me the basic map info, like street and highway numbers, and should keep me pointed in the right direction. When I get back toward the end of July I will be able to provide a better idea of how it works, and which unit I relied upon the most.

Ken

Greetings, I was pointed to this post.

My name is Geoff Wotton. I am the owner of Trail Tech. I can be reached by phone 360-687-4530 or email geoff@trailtech.net First, this is a good read and I appreciate the feedback. The negative feedback is the best, it tells us where we need to work. We live this market. We ride for fun and for a living, we feel blessed for this.

I cannot cover everything but I will touch on a few points:

Let me interject at this point by saying I really don't like it when some vendor tries to blow smoke up your ass and tell you it's pixie dust. This is their explanation of why they don't offer and you don't need a mapping GPS:

I agree with Jäger's point - this text needs a re-write. It is misleading.

First, it doesn't store nor display points of interest and waypoints.

This is not correct. Voyager will store, display and navigate to points of interest or waypoints. Jäger, I would be happy to provide you with a bike and gear, we can go ride together and put Voyager to the test. We can see first hand what Voyager does and what is does not do.

It doesn't store nor display maps, background orthophotos, etc. It displays one thing, and one thing only - tracks.

Correct, it does not display background orthophotos. The other points are not correct (routes, waypoints,.....).

What they have done is taken a very inexpensive GPS board - possibly not even the most current SiRF chips - and stick it in a bike computer.

The " inexpensive GPS board" comment is not true. We use the Mediatek MTK3329 Chipset, not inexpensive and not low quality. By specification, better than the SiRF offerings at the time of design. The GPS chipset is core to our capability, we cannot cut corners.

Regarding the logging, examples work best - During development of Voyager we would ride/test with a 60csx side-by-side with Voyager. On several occasions when we finished our ride and made it back to the truck, riders would forget to turn logging off. The results- Garmin's would record the truck ride home and Voyager would not (the bikes wheel was not rolling, the motor was off). Setting distance logging will not correct this problem. Also, on stops for work or lunch, the Garmin would collect data, Voyager knows the motor is off and the wheel is still - no recording is necessary. We think this is a nice feature and we see as a result very clean tracks from Voyager. Integrating to motorcycle specific features gives us some advantages we believe are very useful.

For the power comment, this is a strong point for us. We work hard to make sure our meters are capable of reliably accepting power from any bike. We see no reason for a user to need to "charge batteries". If your bike runs, our meter runs. If a rider ends up lost in the woods and needs to navigate out (been there), a dead battery can be a killer. A unit that powers from the bike is great insurance that a dead battery will not stop your navigation capability. On the same thinking, a GPS that is bolted to the bike it is very hard to leave at home. The "oops - I forgot my GPS" comment is solved.

OHVtrails.net is weak. We know this and apologize for not improving it sooner. We have a been putting in a huge effort to correct this problem. In early July, we will re-launch this web site with big improvements. The thinking is still the same, only OHV trails, no hiking trails.

Antenna - this is a key point for a dirt bike GPS. We know our meters are in the deep woods and canyons. We need to be accurate here. This was a huge amount of work for us. I would be very happy to show a side by side test of Voyager and any "recreational GPS". We are very happy with the work we have done on antenna performance.

I know I did not touch on every point. I am here to answer any of your questions and welcome you to visit our R&D department and manufacturing line in Battle Ground WA. I am even happier to go ride with you. Last week we used Voyager to cut a new trail that needs breaking in.

We are dedicated to do what works for our market. We know we have weaknesses and we count on you to tell us where we are weak. We will not give up. If you do try one of our meters and you are not happy, we will refund your money and shipping costs. Bottom line, we do not want you to have a meter that you are not happy with.

Happy Trails.

Geoff

Love your post Geoff, I had a Voyager for about six months now and have no complaints. I have rode in one dual sport ride this summer (more to come) and the unit worked fantastic. If I could add any to Voyager, I would display trip distance on the map screen and have the ability to reset and adjust the trip distance. The reason for this, I find that most clubs that put on rides or races, still use roll charts as the primary navigation tool and I need to reset my miles to zero and it is difficult to switch screen with out losing time. Then if GPS track are available I can also use the GPS and the roll chart at the same time to navigate. One more thing a better mount that works around the key on the WR250R/X.

Well looky there
A manufacturer that is not afraid to talk to their customers
good on ya Geoff!!

My only issue with these things is that some crack head douche is going to try and steal it, probably just wrecking things in the process

Great. Thanks a lot Geoff for your commenting on this thread.
This is mainly what I expected and was hoping for. I think I will give it a try in case I can obtain such a unit at a reasonable price.
There is one thing I would improve: integrate the tripmaster feature with external buttons! This would make it up a perfect all in one instrument for my needs.

A nice and small holder perfectly fitting the WR250R (without replacing/removing the stock gauge) would also be a very interesting addon.
I think I will check it out. I strongly believe what you are doing at trail tech is a real good and interesting thing. Totally integrate GPS and vehicle data and provide the most important typical features needed with adventure bikes within a rugged and small device connected to the vehicle, and everything at reasonable pricing.

Phil

We are working on it Phil.

If anyone has a bike local to our facility, we would like to see it...

If not, we can borrow one from the local dealer.

TrailTech wrote:

We are working on it Phil.

If anyone has a bike local to our facility, we would like to see it...

If not, we can borrow one from the local dealer.

Super.
I talked to an US ebay shop. They will provide the Voyager 912-700 unit for WR250R within 2 weeks and they will ship internationally. This should be way cheaper than buying it in Germany at the price of a new Garmin Oregon 450.
I will get me at least one piece. Maybe there will be other WR riders in our local forum who want to get one for themselves.
Very much looking forward to it.

There are several reasons I would like the voyager for:
- after all, I encountered problems with USB power with the Oregon after 2.5 years of usage. Therefore had to switch from bicycle handlebar holder to RAM Mounts holder, which reduces vibrations, but the installation is too big and exposed at the WR. However, no trouble at the Tenere.
- like the idea of scalar rev counter, which is a nice feature for the WR. I want to get rid of permanently trying to shift to 7th gear.
- leave unit at bike, no longer need to think about removing and reinstalling it.
- small unit, good readability, simple, acurate speedo
- simply exchange GPX tracks with the Oregon, in case of way finding expeditions maybe still use both (to have some maps at hand)

However, integrating the tripmaster remote buttons would be a useful upgrade, when participating at roadbook rides and whatever.
Phil

After a lengthy waiting period they did not get back to me, neither place a 912-700 item into ebay, unfortunately. So I took a quick decision and got me a 912-101 (most KTM) two days ago. Paid EUR 200 for item and shipping, but will need to pay around EUR 50.- of taxes. However, this is very cheap compared to local pricing. Item should arrive end of August. Looking forward to it.

The unit could be installed to the WR if possible (I am sure it is possible, apart from coolant hose diameter maybe).
Or it could be installed to my Tenere conversion which utilizes a KTM 690 fork. Lots of options. Lets see.
Phil

Received my voyager. I was surprised how heavy it is. Looks rock solid and is slightly bigger than I expected.

Device started immediately, intuitive handling right away, brillant display, clean wiring, first sat fix after cold start within a few minutes.
Configured device to metric units and fiddled a bit with powersaving settings and so on.

Will install at WR tonight. Already checked best way to get vehicle power. No problem about this.
Curious how speedo sensor  will fit WR250R fork and whether 19mm coolant tube diameter would fit (I got me a KTM unit, not the dedicated WR250R unit due to unavailability).
Also I am very curious whether ignition coil sensor will install. Trail-Tech guide sheet shows how to install sensor cable without availability of ignition cable. Hopefully this works with the WR. I definitely want engine revs signal and speedo signal. Not sure about temperature signal, since I actually do not like to interfere with coolant flow. Need to check available options, since there are other sensor options for coolant.

Lets see.

And BTW, obtaining this item from US was way cheaper than getting it from our local distributor in Germany. I saved EUR 110.- (taxes, shipping and everything paid!). Maybe they should consider their pricing?

Next step: installation of Trail-Tech Voyager type 700-102 (KTM generic) at Yamaha WR250R.
See pictures in my blog post.

I got me unit 912-102 for KTM which would fit perfectly I guess (even coolant hose adapter). Only the speed sensor cable would need to get tweaked, since it fits KTM and Husaberg pre-drilled caliper mounts only. Since this can be used with my Tenere with KTM fork, I will not use it with the WR, but get me another cable that can be used directly.

Up to now there were lots of nice features I could discover after installation.
8GB micro SDHC card (FAT32) cannot be used. Funny enough it could write to it, but not import tracks from it. Using standard SD with max 2GB and FAT16 to fix this.

Tach: rev values not accurate. Tried winding wire in loops around ignition coil, then tried tapping orange wire between ECU and ignition coil. Both work as detector for engine running, but will bring up random tach values mostly.
Temperature sensor installed into coolant flow. Works.
Speed sensor (generic type for USD forks) installed. Works.

Download sample GPX track of yesterdays short test ride. Tach values are random, temperature, speed, altitude are accurate. Also like programmable orange and red warning leds. Nice feature.

I am a little late in getting back to the Voyager after completing the TAT this summer, but better late than never. I never did load the TAT route and used my Garmin 60csx for that. But, I used the voyager continually for mileage and found it very easy and accurate. The WR instruments are just too cumbersome in comparison. I could set and reset easily, and get to the trail miles in a few seconds when leaving and resuming the route after gas, motels, etc. Just that made the Voyager worthwhile. I used the roll charts almost exclusively for navigation and almost never had to go to the GPS except for rerouting, etc. The tach seems to be spot on as far as I can tell. If I get up to Battleground again some time soon I will get Geoff to give me some lessons! 8500 miles round trip and the Voyager is still working like new. I'm a happy customer and hope to use more of it's capability as time permits.

blaisew wrote:

The tach seems to be spot on as far as I can tell.  If I get up to Battleground again some time soon I will get Geoff to give me some lessons!  8500 miles round trip and the Voyager is still working like new.  I'm a happy customer and hope to use more of it's capability as time permits.

Funny. The tach values are unusable for me. Tried to install in three different ways. How did you do it? What firmware main release line (1 or 2)? I have got an old(?) one with fw 1. Not really happy about this.
I have been experimenting with it and collecting tracks quite a lot and I like the idea of this unit. However, I would really like to fix up some things. First of it would be the cumbersome map zooming which was improved already for FW 2 but not for FW1.
This is annoying when using the Trailtech as Routing device. You need _at least_ 2 zooming levels if not three, and you need to switch between them very quickly with one button at most. There is no way of fiddling with the joystick, the right button the joystick again and one more button just to get zoomlevel adapted.
Also I would appreciate an internal track organisation that is a bit more clear and also I would find it very useful not drawing lines between distant trackpoints. That is, if you switch off tracking and switch it on again somewhere else without starting a new track segment, it is annoying you get a long line drawn across all over your track spiderweb. To get rid of it, you need to clear the complete current track, which may result in loss of track data.
And I would like to be able loading tracks from the Garmin Oregon immediately. This is not possible since the XML preambel of those Garmin created GPX files is too long. You need to edit the GPX manually and use a different (shorter) preambel as like generated by routeconverter or different toolkits before the GPX can be imported into the Trail-Tech.

Phil

I had my Voyager sent to Trail-Tech US for firmware upgrade: not the normal update via SD card but major upgrade from FW1 to FW2, since FW1 is no longer continued it seems. Trail-Tech not just upgraded the SW, but sent back a totally new item.
I received it yesterday and have been playing with all the time.

There are major Improvements, that i very much appreciate:
Dual map view with quick change (1 button)
Display labels and names at detail view
Quick toggle for logging
Track autosplit: extremely nice!
Sensors config panel with additional settings
and many more. Usability was improved by far. Much better handling, super!

I gathered some pictures in my blog

Thanks, Trail-Tech! Great service. It is a great device for my WR250R.

A little highjack here. I have the Vapor and I havn't been able to get the tach to work on it. It reads 5180 max RPM. Tried a few ways to install it. On coil plug, wrapped around coil itself, and just inline with the coil wire. Any luck for you peeps????

The tach issue with the WR250R is the only issue that apparently was not fixed with the voyagers new firmware line as far as I can tell right now.
Anything else that ever came up with my device was addressed in a perfect way and works just fine. Even importing GPX files taken directly from Garmin Oregon, which was not possible with previous FW due to Garmins lengthy XML headers is no longer an issue. Just feed it in :)

With settings "sensitivity low", PPR=2 and sensor wire wound around ignition coil plug (as opposed to tapping orange wire) I currently get the most reasonable values. It will always show around 8.000-10.000 rpm, even when idling.
With previous settings it would show 40.000 or 50.000rpm, no matter what i did. At some short moments it might display a correct value for a very short period of time.

There is still not a big relation between actual rev value and the value displayed. It is only loosely coupled.
I guess, there is certain trouble with the WR250R and we have to live with that. One thing to be tried would be a metal coating around sensor wire, but that is too much effort for myself.

However, at advrider someone reported his values would be spot on with the WR250R. I asked him how he had connected the sensor, but he did not reply, unfortunately.

Anyway, with the new device and the new software I am extremely happy and will just forget about tach acuracy. That sensor will still be perfect as engine start indicator.

I am still curious about your results with the vapor. In case you can fix it, let me know!

Phil